[Ashley Bowen]

Hi, Jim,

I like this a lot, how it does so much with so little.

If this were mine, I'd drop the title and title it "A Thought Slips Past," making the title an active one in the poem. My thought behind this is that, doing so, makes the one rhyme in the poem less obvious (or it does to my ear). The only other thought I have is to put a dash after L4, giving a little more pause for those incredible last two lines.

Thanks for posting.

[Jim Ramsey]

Originally Posted by Ashley Bowen

Hi, Jim,

I like this a lot, how it does so much with so little.

If this were mine, I'd drop the title and title it "A Thought Slips Past," making the title an active one in the poem. My thought behind this is that, doing so, makes the one rhyme in the poem less obvious (or it does to my ear). The only other thought I have is to put a dash after L4, giving a little more pause for those incredible last two lines.

Thanks for posting.

Hi Ashley,

Thank you much for your kind assessment. I have waited making further response on this while mulling title changes. The title seems to be where nits have surfaced. I am perplexed a bit by this piece, not by its content, but by its reception. It is a small poem of not many discretely specific images. Many of the main words border on abstraction or generalized entities or concepts such as thought, there, where, place, space, clutter, lost, be, not be. There are no strong verbs. Slips as a verb is almost meaningless except it is presented in the idiom "slips past." It seems though that the poem can spark some readers' imaginations in some way. I am reluctant to make many changes because I don't want to lose that capability. It has a couple obvious rhymes, there and where and space and place, and I am worried that if I de-emphasize them I will lose something. The play of words seems key to me. I don't know. For the same reason, I am reluctant to change the three couplet structure by allowing the title to be the first line. I think that is what you are suggesting, or are you suggesting a repetition of the title. (no need to respond—isn't it becoming obvious I am reluctant to change this because I don't want to lose what I didn't know I had?) I did add an em dash to try it out. Lately, when they come at a line break, I have been putting them at the beginning of the second line rather than at the end of the first. Again, thanks for the help. Oh, I do want to add that usually I am perfectly willing to use someone else's words or changes if they offer them and I like them.

Jim

[John Riley]

This is a good one, Jim. The spareness is perfect for the theme. I join in by saying the title is too much. It is too heavy for the poem, which sparkles with its elusiveness. Titling is a challenge. I envision it is a manuscript with similar poems, each titled with a number. I think numbering it would be the best solution to the title issue and perhaps challenge yourself to write more in a similar size and mode. You have a knack for doing it.

[Jim Ramsey]

Hi John,

Thanks for the encouragement. I like the way you describe this type of poem (or thought, since I know you are making a play on the idea of elusive thoughts). I don't know if any of my poems, or thoughts, have ever sparkled with elusiveness before. I never saw this one having that potential.

Jim

[Jim Moonan]

.
I think the subject of thought is among the most challenging to address, and poetry might be the only art form that can do it justice. Thoughts are slippery, fleeting, persistent, obscure, arresting, reoccurring, conflicting, intrusive, unending, and on and on and on. They are ceaseless. Even in our sleep we continue to churn them out. Bob Dylan said, "Thought will fuck you up", and in saying that, he redefined what "fuck you up" means. Like him, I have an uneasy alliance with my thoughts. I often think my thoughts are not my own and like the thought of that : ) I am also bedeviled by thoughts that masquerade as ideas. They are not. But thoughts are seeds that can be held and magically transformed into ideas that then can be transcribed into poetic language. That's what I think you are essentially trying to do, but I wonder if you've gone far enough.

I will be contrarian and say that the poem feels like navel-gazing. Of course, if you went through my journals you would see a lot of that going on. But when it's time to write a poem, I must shake myself out of that tendency to naval-gaze and look elsewhere to create. I still don't know if I've ever succeeded.

• Would the first couplet be more impactful if it was:

............. My thoughts slip past
.............and clutter space

• The em dash interrupts the floating quality that thoughts have and that the punctuation-less lines echo. You might also consider no capitalization.

• I agree with others that the title doesn't work. Either call it "untitled" (I would argue that raw thoughts are almost by definition untitled) or perhaps Susan's suggestion "Void".

• I don't know what to think about the Hamlet/Shakespeare in the final lines... it feels too pat.

• Like Rick I do like the expression/idea that thoughts clutter space. They never clean up after themselves.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe thoughts are the very essence of navel-gazing and therefore this poem is not navel-gazing but instead a biopsy of navel-gazing. Thoughts are all we have in this interior world that we cannot escape from — we can only think about it. So maybe never mind : )

.

[R. Nemo Hill]

Well, I wish I could be as enthusiastic as some others about this, Jim, but to me it seems unremarkable. It is dressed up minimally, as a bit of gnomic wisdom, but your admission that it was written quickly seems too true. The very short koan-like poems that return to haunt me are most often pieces that have been meditated on at great length, and then pared down to their essentially mysterious core. The title, which I agree is "pompous", and the reliance on the Shakespeare echo at the close, make me feel as if this is something quite ordinary merely dressed up in borrowed profundity. You seem to have put the cart before the horse, but it's the horse that does the work. Yeah, thoughts wander, we all know that--. But there's nothing here to make my own thoughts do anything other than that. I've hesitated to add my sour two cents here as I have not been very active lately and risk a rep as a grumpy spoiler. And I have tried to like the poem, yet in the end its spareness seems unearned to me.

Nemo

[Jim Ramsey]

Hi Jim M.,

A contrarian take is always welcome. In fact, I gave one myself about this poem in my response to Ashley. As to navel gazing, I'm not quite ready to admit to a self-centeredness in the piece. Clutter is my key word in the poem. Rick is making the point that it would take one hell of a big thought to clutter all of space by itself, and as far as a strictly literal interpretation of my use of clutter in the singular, he's right. My thought though is that I was using the singular for poetic effect, to give the reader that moment of frisson where they realize hey, I have lots of thoughts that slip away too, just like the N, so many in fact, I can't count them, can't recall them, can't ever turn them into something tangible or memorable. I want the reader to realize how many thoughts not just of theirs but in the history of the world have slipped away. [as an aside, maybe one of them could have led to a cure for cancer, but that's a different poem]. Anyway, I intentionally avoided using thoughts in the plural. I wanted the reader to find the extent of that clutter on their own.

Much in your comment shows you found in the poem much of what I hoped could be found. I am waiting to find a better title. I don't like "void" because I want to avoid a nihilistic take. I chose "Existence" thinking of Descartes and Cogito: ergo sum. Thinking, in that philosophical context, is what proves we exist. When the vital signs flatline and brainwaves show consciousness is lost, that thought is no longer possible, well it's time to say all in, and put your chips on the soul.

Thanks for the feedback on the em-dash. Ashley thought it might lend some emphasis to the borrowed Shakespeare, which I tried to give a little twist. I usually take your side though, that either you use proper punctuation all the way through or none
at all.

John suggested no title might be appropriate and that this small poem could be part of a greater whole. I think that corresponds with your take that this poem doesn't go far enough.

I realize you were wrangling with your own thoughts as you commented and I can fully appreciate that. Your insights are interesting and helpful, if not to this poem, then to others I may write later, if I remember them after forgetting to jot them down when I think of them, putting them at risk of slipping away. On the other hand, that may be one answer to resolving some of the clutter I add to the sphere.

All the best,
Jim R.

QUOTE=Jim Moonan;504065].
I think the subject of thought is among the most challenging to address, and poetry might be the only art form that can do it justice. Thoughts are slippery, fleeting, persistent, obscure, arresting, reoccurring, conflicting, intrusive, unending, and on and on and on. They are ceaseless. Even in our sleep we continue to churn them out. Bob Dylan said, "Thought will fuck you up", and in saying that, he redefined what "fuck you up" means. Like him, I have an uneasy alliance with my thoughts. I often think my thoughts are not my own and like the thought of that : ) I am also bedeviled by thoughts that masquerade as ideas. They are not. But thoughts are seeds that can be held and magically transformed into ideas that then can be transcribed into poetic language. That's what I think you are essentially trying to do, but I wonder if you've gone far enough.

I will be contrarian and say that the poem feels like navel-gazing. Of course, if you went through my journals you would see a lot of that going on. But when it's time to write a poem, I must shake myself out of that tendency to naval-gaze and look elsewhere to create. I still don't know if I've ever succeeded.

• Would the first couplet be more impactful if it was:

............. My thoughts slip past
.............and clutter space

• The em dash interrupts the floating quality that thoughts have and that the punctuation-less lines echo. You might also consider no capitalization.

• I agree with others that the title doesn't work. Either call it "untitled" (I would argue that raw thoughts are almost by definition untitled) or perhaps Susan's suggestion "Void".

• I don't know what to think about the Hamlet in the final lines... it feels too pat.

• Like Rick I do like the expression/idea that thoughts clutter space. They never clean up after themselves.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe thoughts are the very essence of navel-gazing and therefore this poem is not navel-gazing but instead a biopsy of navel-gazing. Thoughts are all we have in this interior world that we cannot escape from — we can only think about it. So maybe never mind : )

.[/quote]

[Jim Ramsey]

Hi Nemo,

I appreciate hearing your take. In a way I wish I had never explained so much of my own thought processes behind this poem so that I could be confident it was being judged strictly on its merits. Fortunately there were some good responses before I ever got involved in commenting. I try to keep pride or bias from coloring my take on what is good or bad. I also hope to be practical. If some readers like a poem, then some editors might too. I'll settle for the imperfect poem that gets published over those that do not. As you know, I've disagreed with your take on poems posted here before. I won't argue you're wrong here. But I will argue how long I took to write the poem says nothing about its merits. Whether I've poked fun at poetic pedantry in the past does not mean I always do. I will resist critting the crit, but really... "borrowed profundity" "return to haunt me" "pared down to their essentially mysterious core." I think you're off your game.

Originally Posted by R. Nemo Hill

Well, I wish I could be as enthusiastic as some others about this, Jim, but to me it seems unremarkable. It is dressed up minimally, as a bit of gnomic wisdom, but your admission that it was written quickly seems too true. The very short koan-like poems that return to haunt me are most often pieces that have been meditated on at great length, and then pared down to their essentially mysterious core. The title, which I agree is "pompous", and the reliance on the Shakespeare echo at the close, make me feel as if this is something quite ordinary merely dressed up in borrowed profundity. You seem to have put the cart before the horse, but it's the horse that does the work. Yeah, thoughts wander, we all know that--. But there's nothing here to make my own thoughts do anything other than that. I've hesitated to add my sour two cents here as I have not been very active lately and risk a rep as a grumpy spoiler. And I have tried to like the poem, yet in the end its spareness seems unearned to me.

Nemo

[Roger Slater]

You might want to lean into the Shakespeare a bit more. The poem made me think of another line in Hamlet, "I could be bound in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." Maybe call the poem "Bound in a Nutshell"? I think it would make the ending seem like more than just a throwaway reference, and it would tell us what it is that the thought "slips past."

[Nick McRae]

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