[W T Clark]

Ahem, no, a man had him down on his knees.
The woman, who we don't know was black or white, seemed much more an element of lust, not love. People have a lot of trouble with Shakespeare's homosexuality. The fair youth sonnets are sonnets about love, troubled by the presence of lust; the dark lady sonnets are about lust, troubled by the absence of love.

Originally Posted by Jennifer Reeser

The greatest genius of language ever born to the West -- and the woman who had him down on his knees wasn't white.

That is true, forever and ever, what dreams may come, amen. And while I would not dare dream of suggesting that Sir Patrick's motives are less than noble, you can bet your "Black Lives Matter" commemorative coffee cup from Cafe Woke, that every real racist from here to Botswana will be on board with this. Then who's next in the purge? Othello?

There are reasons we do not negotiate with that terrorist, Ignorance.

[Jennifer Reeser]

That editing suggestion seems fair enough to me, W.T., especially given that all of this ultimately is only amusing, even comical, supposition. We don't know if she was black, but we KNOW for an actual fact that he was gay. Or from the other side of the aisle, vice versa. Or (plug in alternate variable).

Or none of it is real, and everything was persona. Like my entire series of dialogues with those sonnets -- total fiction, wholly invented. Yadda, yadda, yadda. It's what we do, to shoot the breeze.

J

[Jennifer Reeser]

I have a real job, working remote with Artificial Intelligence in research and communications for global corporations, mainstream media, academia, etc. It's on this huge, NASA type display in my home office, where I am silent, listening to files all day.

Yesterday, my husband heard me laughing as I periodically cut away from it to look in, on this discussion. "Why do you keep laughing?" he asked, cracking the door a bit. "I'm in a funny thread on Shakespeare," I answered as he pulled it to, bemused.

J

[Jennifer Reeser]

Of course, W.T., you've got to realize that you and I are BOTH already yesterday's news, "Old School," for there is a new generation and a new game in town. Now word on the street is that gender is a construct, the "fair youth" was actually a transgender actor on the stage where female characters were portrayed by men, and so therefore Shakespeare was...wait for it...heterosexual, in reality.

O me, O life. The world wags on, and there is always a bigger bear

J

[Sarah-Jane Crowson]

(I should have made it a bear, really)
(runs away swiftly)

[Allen Tice]

Jennifer, opportunistic, flattering, wheedling, upwardly mobile, religiously cautious, devious, a tremenduous gold digger, shameless (see Sonnet 137), and a self promoter as bad as Odysseus, I think that what we KNOW about Shakespeare is no more than that he was as glib as anyone else times three and a half, and twice as horny but nice from an early age as the Ohio State University Marching Band at halftime.

Of course, not being a woman, I’m surely wrong.

Buy my book on Amazon.

[E. Shaun Russell]

Jennifer, opportunistic, flattering, wheedling, upwardly mobile, religiously cautious, devious, a tremenduous gold digger, shameless (see Sonnet 137), and a self promoter as bad as Odysseus, I think that what we KNOW about Shakespeare is no more than that he was as glib as anyone else times three and a half, and twice as horny but nice from an early age as the Ohio State University Marching Band at halftime.

I could have used this verbatim yesterday -- especially since, for all I know, I might have a member of the OSU Marching Band in my class.

[Allen Tice]

Thanks Shaun. It is common in the Sonnets that the dressing of the surface verbiage radically subverts what the full sonnet presents, in this case a very intimate view of a very intimate moment. This undercutting of an easy literal reading is what makes many of the Sonnets twinkle with constant refigurings of what seems momentarily clear on the page, regardless of the probable overt addressee. Give me a Sonnet and the chances are I can prove that it says the opposite of what it says, and so what if Shakespeare would flirt or do the nasty with anyone he chose! For whatever reason, even love. Nasty is nice, sweetheart is sour grapes ( peel me a grape ), I firmly believe that much of the appeal of the Sonnets lies in their kaleidoscopic seduction of readers of all orientations. Here’s 137; squint at Line Four, then proceed: Elizabeth the First couldn’t find fault, nor could a mysogynist. What a final line! I’m so jealous of William Shakespeare.

Thou blind fool, Love, what dost thou to mine eyes
That they behold and see not what they see?
They know what beauty is, see where it lies,
Yet what the best is take the worst to be.
If eyes, corrupt by overpartial looks,
Be anchored in the bay where all men ride,
Why of eyes’ falsehood hast thou forgèd hooks,
Whereto the judgment of my heart is tied?
Why should my heart think that a several plot
Which my heart knows the wide world’s common place?
Or mine eyes, seeing this, say this is not,
To put fair truth upon so foul a face?
In things right true my heart and eyes have erred,
And to this false plague are they now transferred.

[Allen Tice]

Originally Posted by Jennifer Reeser

The greatest genius of language ever born to the West -- and the woman who had him down on his knees wasn't white.

I don’t need to expand much more on this thread beyond noting that a viable reading is that the DL wasn’t blonde !

A brunette, possibly of Italian extraction, would fill the bill nicely…

[Jennifer Reeser]

Well, the three of you made my day. Sarah-Jane, you are so gifted! Thank you for sharing those gifts with the universe. Don't ever let the haters shame and shout you down.

Allen, it is done! Your book should arrive in my mailbox on Tuesday.

Shaun, how encouraging to know that in these troubled times, there are still marching musicians, and they are still receiving educations. But for your sake, I pray s/he is not a percussionist.

Jennifer