[Alexandra Baez]

You can be vocally critical as well as silently admiring, you know. Each of us can only do so much, but I just want to make sure you’re not one of those misguided Sphereans who think they have nothing to contribute if they don’t know the language being translated.

I’ve thought about it, but I feel intimidated at the idea of being surrounded by seasoned translators, who it seems would have a much tighter and nimbler grasp on the issues at stake. And I know that these issues aren't confined to linguistic ones in a narrow sense, since a keen grasp on the nature and perspective of the poet as well as his broader cultural context is also critical. For these reasons, I’d feel rather presumptuous having a hack at it with such a limited tool kit as I carry . . . however, you’ve extended the invitation, so I’ll try sometime and see if I can generate any comments that I could post without cringing too much. I certainly think that the things you and others have been translating—in translation, anyway—are incredibly vigorous and exciting.

I actually thought it was a rather comical image of kidnappers dressed up as shepherds and Wise Men, but it could be read more realistically, I suppose.

Yes, it feels comical if one is certain that it’s supposed to be, but I didn’t feel well enough prepared for that. The fears are designated as the child’s, and yet the adult is avoiding going down the street. If you were even to substitute L3’s “all” for “but,” I’d feel much more clued in.

I don’t mind some initial confusion as long as the real fear comes into focus by the end. The poem is as conflicted and ambivalent as my own feelings.

I guess I’d like the confusion to be presented in a somewhat less confusing way, if you know what I mean. That is, I think it’s possible to convey conflicted feelings while maintaining some inner core of omniscient clarity for the reader to hold onto, helped by some slight foreshadowing at the beginning—a sense that the poem is in control of what it’s trying to do, if not of its feelings. That’s what makes me fully trust and engage with a poem.

A couple commenters suggested that the poem would benefit from being even darker! You’ve understood that “affection/nostalgia” is the real source of my avoidance anxiety, but apparently think others won’t get it.

That's because it was only thanks to your comments that I felt certain of the “real source of avoidance anxiety.” Your poem's ending on this note did help, but there were still contradictory elements in the beginning to reconcile with that. “Even darker” would be interesting in its own way, but based on your comments, I divined that that’s not what you were after.

So you read “to blend in” as a sort of headless double iamb? That seems awfully complicated to me, but then I’m more of a chanter than a natural reader. When I pick up on a strong meter, I fall into the groove and take it as far as I can.

Yes, that's how I naturally read "to blend in," with no effort toward complexity. I know what you mean about your chanting approach to reading, but I think it's a minority one.

Others seem to be tripping over “LCD” too, so you must be right. I could reluctantly replace it with “The TV.”

Or, you could say something like

And the LCD screens and bright fairy lights blink

with a little artful extra stress on "bright" or whatever feels its place. Or you could go with 1st/3rd foot variations, the likes of which are common and quite acceptable, even refreshing, in anapestic verse:

LCD screens and fairy lights blink

It’s a generic you: how would you (whoever you are) feel if you, like the unnamed sofa sitter (my dad or maybe me)—glanced up and saw a ghost looking in.

Okay; for me, part of the confusion with this is that you haven’t specified (in the poem) who you pictured the unnamed sofa sitter to be, and I was left floundering around trying to guess--which is understandable, since even you aren't committed on this point. Jim had suggested “his” instead of “your” in L10; I’m wondering how it would be to take it a step further and say

to glance up from Dad’s plastic-clad sofa, aghast,
at a ghost looking in on his snug Christmas past!

But this bunks up the meter a bit, and there would probably be readers who'd interpret "his" to refer to Dad, not the ghost, even though this interpretation isn't grammatically correct. And of course, your premise is inherently convoluted, especially if the unnamed sitter is the n himself. For this reason, I didn't even try to do an n-sitter version. Aack! Still, convolution is the fun of this passage. If it just could be tamed a wee bit . . .

[David Callin]

Hi Carl,

Great title! I love the double-edged quality of it.

S2 does give a slightly sinister hue to the street, but I like it. It reminded me of the wild wood in Wind in the Willows. (S1 has something of that too.)

I also have to report a bit of difficulty with L5. I don't think I'm used to stressing LCD on the D. (I can do it if I try.)

SS4 & 5 have an agreeably Dickensian glow about them.

I think I like your idea of making it longer. At present something feels like it's missing between the penultimate stanza and the last.

Cheers (seasonal and otherwise)

David

[Carl Copeland]

Originally Posted by Jan Iwaszkiewicz

Put a stamp and envelope aside for next December.

Thanks so much, Jan, but you forgot to give me your address ))

[Carl Copeland]

Thanks for your clarifications, Alexandra.

Originally Posted by A. Baez

I’d feel rather presumptuous having a hack at it with such a limited tool kit as I carry . . . however, you’ve extended the invitation, so I’ll try sometime and see if I can generate any comments that I could post without cringing too much.

You’re a poet and native speaker of English, and no more tools are needed to evaluate a translation as English verse. You don’t even have to glance at the crib. But do only what you feel comfortable doing. No Spherean should feel expected to comment on anything.

Originally Posted by A. Baez

If you were even to substitute L3’s “all” for “but,” I’d feel much more clued in.

I did have “but” in that position, but it felt too leading—which is what you want, of course, and you may be right.

Originally Posted by A. Baez

That's because it was only thanks to your comments that I felt certain of the “real source of avoidance anxiety.” Your ending on this note did help, but there was still contradictory elements in the beginning to reconcile with that. “Even darker” would be interesting in its own way, but based on your comments, I divined that that’s not what you were after.

Right. If you and others understood it as a distressed, dangerous neighborhood that the N is glad to have escaped, it may still work as a poem, but it’s not what I wanted. Christmas 2023 was one of the darkest in memory for me, so maybe that’s how it happened.

Originally Posted by A. Baez

This was no effort toward complexity on my part, but just my natural reading. I know what you mean about your different, chanting approach to reading, but I think this is a minority approach.

Yeah, I was always told to read poetry naturally and let the meter make itself known (or not) as it will, but I find a strong meter too seductive for that. When I pick up on a beat, I trust it to carry me over spots that could otherwise be ambiguous, like “to blend in” and “LCD.” Irregular verse derails that approach and gets me into all sorts of trouble, but this poem offers no resistance to a chanter, which is why I’m amazed that anyone would get hung up. I can’t ignore it, though.

Originally Posted by A. Baez

Or, you could say something like

And the LCD screens with the fairy lights blink

or go with 1st/3rd foot variations, the likes of which are common and quite acceptable, even refreshing, in anapestic verse:

LCD screens and fairy lights blink

Ok, this is helpful. It tells me that you—and probably others who’ve complained—are determined to stress “screens.” I’m resistant to that (in the anapestic context), but I’ll have to take it into account.

Originally Posted by A. Baez

for me, part of the confusion with this is that you haven’t specified (in the poem) who you pictured the unnamed sofa sitter to be, and I was left floundering around trying to guess--which is understandable, since even you aren't committed on this point. Jim had suggested “his” instead of “your” in L10 …

I’d rather not name the sofa sitter, since, as you say, even I’m not sure who it is. Jim’s suggestion would help sort out whose past is whose, but even that’s a bit too clarifying for me. What would you think about “that snug Christmas past”?

[Alexandra Baez]

Hi, Carl,

You’re a poet and native speaker of English, and no more tools are needed to evaluate a translation as English verse.

Yes, as English verse—but what I’ve noticed is that assessing this element alone often sidesteps other important, even overriding, considerations. Thus, the translator often has to carefully sift out what parts of such suggestions might actually be applied appropriately given all the other factors at stake. If it feels worth it to you to do all that sorting, I’ll see, at least once, what I can do with commenting. Not out of a sense of obligation--of adventure.

I did have “but” in that position, but it felt too leading—which is what you want, of course, and you may be right.

Oh, my! I guess I feel good that I read part of your mind, at least.

Christmas 2023 was one of the darkest in memory for me, so maybe that’s how it happened.

I’m so sorry about that. It has my imagination running wild. I hope you are pulling out of that darkness, whatever it is. Wishing you light.

Ok, this is helpful. It tells me that you—and probably others who’ve complained—are determined to stress “screens.” I’m resistant to that (in the anapestic context), but I’ll have to take it into account.

It’s actually a virtually nonexistent stress for me—I think I’m really just instinctively promoting it because of the surrounding meter.

About reading styles, I actually do what you do to an extent—I’m not completely artless—but I think that my natural speech sensor is set just a bit higher than yours. (I see this matter as less binary than a range.) For example, I’ve always preferred to pause at least a bit at the end of each line. Another factor to consider is the possibility of “authorial bias”—you, more than anyone else, have known since the beginning what you were aiming for metrically (and otherwise) in this poem, so I think you are more likely than anyone else to see that aim being met. At least that’s how it goes with me and my own work!

Anyway, I did an experiment to see if a different placement of “LCD” in a wannabe anapestic tet line could make me naturally perceive this term as an anapest. It does! For example, I’d unquestioningly categorize it as one here:

In the room, LCD screens all merrily blink

although it’s a mite heavy on “L” and “C,” both relatively long syllables. I think that in cases like this, it helps not only to have established the meter firmly in the poem as a whole before the questionable element, but also to have established the meter even in the particular line before the special element is introduced.

What would you think about “that snug Christmas past”?

Yes, I guess that would embrace the ambiguity more and thus make me less uncomfortable with it.

[Carl Copeland]

Originally Posted by A. Baez

About reading styles, I actually do what you do to an extent—I’m not completely artless—but I think that my natural speech sensor is set just a bit higher than yours. (I see this matter as less binary than a range.) For example, I’ve always preferred to pause at least a bit at the end of each line. Another factor to consider is the possibility of “authorial bias”—you, more than anyone else, have known since the beginning what you were aiming for metrically (and otherwise) in this poem, so I think you are more likely than anyone else to see that aim being met. At least that’s how it goes with me and my own work!

I endorse every word—except the self-deprecating “artless.” Your natural-speech sensor is set correctly for most of what we read on the Sphere and for most contemporary English-language poetry. My yearning for a “ballroom meter,” as Joe aptly put it, trips me up time and again.

Originally Posted by A. Baez

Anyway, I did an experiment to see if a different placement of “LCD” in a wannabe anapestic tet line could make me naturally perceive this term as an anapest. It does! … I think that in cases like this, it helps not only to have established the meter firmly in the poem as a whole before the questionable element, but also to have established the meter even in the particular line before the special element is introduced.

A fascinating experiment and convincing conclusion, but it’s hard to begin every line with two naturally unstressed syllables (“in the,” “at a,” etc.), which is why I like to begin anapestic lines with natural iambs. It doesn’t establish the meter, but it gets the first stress clear, which seems to help the anapests that follow. That’s not how this one came out, though. I mentioned “The TV screens” as a solution, but I think the articles in “the screens” and “the houses” start to sound like filler. “Lit TV” would suit me, I suppose, but it’s not a natural anapest, so are we back where we started?

Originally Posted by A. Baez

Yes, I guess that would embrace the ambiguity more and thus make me less uncomfortable with it.

Done.

Originally Posted by A. Baez

It has my imagination running wild.

It was just that I was sick and alone on Christmas, with several other long-term problems coming to a head at the same time. Later, when I’m feeling more positively charged, I’ll think about adding another couplet or two to the poem to cast that street and house in a more affectionate glow.

Thanks for the wish of light, Alexandra. The same and brighter to you.

[Carl Copeland]

Originally Posted by David Callin

Great title! I love the double-edged quality of it.

Thanks, David. No one else has mentioned that.

Originally Posted by David Callin

I also have to report a bit of difficulty with L5. I don't think I'm used to stressing LCD on the D. (I can do it if I try.)

I don’t get how y’all are stressing “LCD.” My suspicion is that you’re determined to stress “screen,” and Alexandra said something about giving each letter of the acronym an equal stress, which for me would make “LCD screens” a very slow, heavy double spondee—not what I want at all. I’m now considering replacing it with “Lit TV screens.” Would that work better for you?

Originally Posted by David Callin

I think I like your idea of making it longer. At present something feels like it's missing between the penultimate stanza and the last.

I’m not sure where the extra couplet or couplets would go, but I think I’d use them to show my real affection for this street and house, which Alexandra feels is obscured by the “sinister hue.” I’m just not in the right mood for that yet.

Cheers in every sense to you as well, David.

[Susan McLean]

Carl,
I think it is well done. I picked up immediately that you were in the same meter as "'Twas the night before Christmas," which adds an ironic undertone to the darker hints in your poem. I think you should follow your own instincts about when a poem is complete. The jarring shifts or unexpected jumps are part of the experience, as are the irregular shifts to slant rhyme. Ending on a slant rhyme is particularly effective for signaling a closure that is not really closure.

Susan

[Carl Copeland]

Originally Posted by Susan McLean

I picked up immediately that you were in the same meter as "'Twas the night before Christmas," which adds an ironic undertone to the darker hints in your poem.

That pleases me to no end, Susan. I didn’t consciously set out to use the same meter, but it was definitely playing in the back of my mind. At one point, I actually reread “’Twas the night before Christmas” to see if there were any details I could use.

Originally Posted by Susan McLean

I think you should follow your own instincts about when a poem is complete.

I need all the advice I can get, including yours to follow my own instincts. Thanks, Susan.

[Alexandra Baez]

it’s hard to begin every line with two naturally unstressed syllables (“in the,” “at a,” etc.), which is why I like to begin anapestic lines with natural iambs.

What do you mean, begin with natural iambs? In the first foot? That would mess up the anapestic meter, so that can’t be what you mean.

I mentioned “The TV screens” as a solution, but I think the articles in “the screens” and “the houses” start to sound like filler. “Lit TV” would suit me, I suppose, but it’s not a natural anapest, so are we back where we started?

I’m afraid so. I see your concern about too many “the”s, especially since you have two in the previous couplet, as well. It appears that you’re adamant about not varying the anapestic meter; otherwise I’d reiterate the suggestion

LCD screens and fairy lights blink

Btw, initially, I didn’t consciously recognize your poem’s parallels to “The Night Before Christmas,” I think because your tone was so different, but it did occur to me a couple of days ago as I was milling around the apartment.

It was just that I was sick and alone on Christmas, with several other long-term problems coming to a head at the same time. Later, when I’m feeling more positively charged, I’ll think about adding another couplet or two to the poem to cast that street and house in a more affectionate glow.

Oh, dear. The season does seem to magnetize challenges and hardships--has since the beginning. I think that’s really wise and organic of you to wait till you’re in the right frame of mind before trying to write something reflecting that frame of mind. While it might seem like a no-brainer, I’ve never heard a poet say something like that.