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  #71  
Unread 02-01-2023, 09:34 PM
E. Shaun Russell E. Shaun Russell is offline
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Regarding Dickey, I had a couple of undergrad classes with his biographer (and eventual poet laureate of Virginia) Henry Hart. Henry is a very polite man -- genteel in the New England sense. He would occasionally tell the class stories about trying to connect with Dickey for the biography, and Dickey would hang-up on him, call him names, or otherwise be incredibly rude. It was quite clear that it was very difficult to get anything other than boorishness out of Dickey. It's a wonder the biography was even finished at all.

He sounds like he was an all-around horrible person. And yet "Falling" is a masterwork, in my view.
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  #72  
Unread 02-02-2023, 08:34 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is online now
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"That suggests that when you're in a dry spell, you're not a poet. It doesn't mean you are more or less worthy as a person. Just that you are not Doing the Thing on a regular basis, at this particular time in your life.

Which is another reason why I'm not in a hurry to have business cards made. More often than not, it's not true that I am Doing the Thing."

Not sure I agree with this logic, Julie. All poets have had dry spells. I guess I should ask how long the dry spell has to be in order for a poet to forfeit the title. Certainly we're allowed to take a week or two off now and then? How about six months? A year maybe? Perhaps it also depends on your intent during the dry spell, and whether the dry spell ever ends.

Etymology is not a very good way to prove the point, however, since it could equally prove that no one gets to call themselves anything if they haven't done it for a long time. If you're an unemployed plumber, you're not a plumber after all even though you know how to fix pipes and are prepared to resume doing so if anyone hires you.

It's odd that this is a frequent source of discussion among poets, yet the answer to the question changes absolutely nothing, as is the case with most "arguments" that ultimately boil down to semantics.
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  #73  
Unread 02-02-2023, 10:26 AM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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But Rogerbob, no one is a plumber anymore, because lead pipes are passé.

Seriously, though, if poets aren't allowed to argue about semantics, who is?
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  #74  
Unread 02-02-2023, 01:41 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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"Woody Allen is quite the extreme case, but it doesn't take away from my appreciation of his films"


James, it feels extreme in terms of its hold on the popular imagination, but in terms of actual validity I would say he's the opposite of an extreme case. Unlike Weinstein or Bill Cosby or Jimmy Savile or R Kelly or Kevin Spacey, who all had multiple accusers following suit as soon as initial allegations were made, Allen seems to be the peculiar disgraced celebrity for whom only one single, isolated incident of abuse is alleged. No other women or children, or now grown-up children, have since made any complaints against him. Lots of actors, both male and female, say they now regret working with him but none actually have a bad word to say about his conduct, and this is a man who has been working in showbusiness for over 60 years. I am inclined to believe he's innocent.

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 02-02-2023 at 01:50 PM.
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  #75  
Unread 02-02-2023, 02:05 PM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is online now
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Mark, I sort of agree with you, but there's also the matter of his sleeping with the teenage daughter of his then lover, a daughter he had known since birth and played with since her infancy. At least borderline incestuous, though even without the incest angle he would still raise eyebrows marrying her when she was 21 and he was 56. And you can add to that the reports of several women who have worked with him. Mariel Hemingway, for example (in a movie that took for granted it was okay for a middle age man to date a teenager), says that he came onto her on the set when she was pretty much just a kid.

But I agree that he is no Harvey Weinstein. And I wouldn't boycott his movies if they were any good, but it's been a long time since that's been the case.
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  #76  
Unread 02-02-2023, 03:43 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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I haven't heard about the "reports of several women who have worked with him". Certainly, I'm not suggesting sainthood for him, though he and Soon-Yi's seemingly very happy 25 year marriage must count for something. Basically, from everything I've read, I just don't believe he is guilty of the thing that has seen him vilified, that of abusing his 7 year old adopted daughter. I think he was stitched up.
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  #77  
Unread 02-02-2023, 03:49 PM
John Riley John Riley is offline
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Woody Allen ran off with his long-time partner’s daughter. That wouldn’t fly in hillbilly country. His daughter says he put his fingers in her vagina when she was a small child. I guess because I went through the same sort of experience as a child, and people chose to not believe me because it was too much hassle, I tend to believe the children. His son changed his name and cut ties. But the most convincing evidence of Allen’s attraction for underage girls is “Manhattan.” It’s a confession on film. I‘ve admired his films for years but have no doubt he’s a sexual predator. All predators aren’t alike. Some use power, others a sick charm, others humor.
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  #78  
Unread 02-02-2023, 04:17 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Also, Roger, as far as this goes "there's also the matter of his sleeping with the teenage daughter of his then lover, a daughter he had known since birth and played with since her infancy", it just isn't true. Firstly, Allen and Mia Farrow never lived together and Soon-Yi was already 10 when Allen and Mia Farrow first met in 1980. And according to Wikipedia

"Previn has said that Allen "was never any kind of father figure [to her]" and that she "never had any dealings with him" during her childhood. The findings of the judicial investigation carried out during the custody trial between Farrow and Allen determined that before 1990 (when she was 20), Previn and Allen had rarely spoken to each other".

Again, not saying it isn't a peculiar and disturbing set-up but facts are important.

I think Moses Farrow's statement is worth reading.
http://mosesfarrow.blogspot.com/2018...arrow.html?m=1

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 02-03-2023 at 09:31 AM.
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  #79  
Unread 02-02-2023, 05:29 PM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is online now
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I'm agnostic on his guilt. On the one hand, there's only the one accusation. On the other hand, you and I may disagree on this, but even with your correction, it seems a bit suspect when a 45 year old man meets a 10 year old girl who happens to be the daughter of his lover, and a few years later (she says she was 21, but few people take that at face value) he is carrying on a secret affair with his lover's daughter behind her back.

Sun Yi has reason to insist she never looked at him as a father. But he was a frequent presence in her life when she was still a child, and he was presented to her as her mother's sexual partner, so I think Freud would have a different view. And Woody was a grown-up and knew that he was choosing the one near-child that would cause Mia the most hurt.
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  #80  
Unread 02-03-2023, 09:23 AM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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I disagree with that too, Julie. For me, down time has been, more often than not, a period of growth. Not quite the same as a mechanic (or plumber), where constant hands-on sharpens your skills. There are mechanics as poets. But that's not what I'm in it for. If you're constantly churning out poems, I think you narrow your vision.
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