[Barry J. M. Thomson]

Updated, the post is finally finished, after hours of editing, originally intended as a query with genuine questions, which a poem I'm relatively happy with now, developed naturally in the midst of unintentionally, it's still primarily intended as a query post, that's what it was created for, but as a side note, you are welcome to comment on my fluke poem if you want to, which came about quite by accident, I just went with the flow of it when it hit me, but in any case, thanks to everyone for welcoming me into the forum here, sincerely B.

Edit - the full poem as it is just now, uncompleted, and unedited, is posted at the bottom of my original query post, sorry you guys were confused by witnessing the creation process, as an autistic with skizoaffective disorder, my mind is a pretty chaotic place to exist at times, so I can only imagine what its like to witness from the outside lol, thanks for your honest and helpful responses, sincerely, B.

Edited a little before posting, the reason, you'll see.

Hello all, I'm a new member here on the forum, and I have loved poetry "ever since I truly discovered it", in June of 2019.

I can't post my poems yet, as I am required to give positive responses on others work first, that's fine, but I wonder if someone could explain the etiquette a little for me.

"I have tried a few approaches", from offering hints and suggestions, to displaying "formatting examples within the poets work".

But could someone briefly tell me the generally accepted modes of response, and the best way to apply such?.

Sometimes I feel the best way to show suggestions, at least "of commas and spacing", etc, is "by visual example", but I wonder if "that takes away some creative process from the creator", or upsets them in some way, as "even such trivial things, can have a potent effect on the work".

I like to think I would be ok "with such in my own poems", to some extent, but I do feel that perhaps many poets are likely "to want their work to be wholly their own", and would rather receive small ideas, "to work into their writing themselves", if indeed at all.

Anyway, is there an acceptable form of visual example?, or is it best just to keep suggestions of any sort to a minimum?, and where suggestions are worth offering, what is the best way to go about it?.

As for myself, I have two quick questions, one, how do I set my signature?, as "I can't find the tool to do it".

And two, when "I first came to appreciate poetry", about two "years ago", over the course of a few months, I wrote about 30 original poems, of reasonable quality for a casual writer, at least without having much formal education beforehand I think.

But after a mental health crisis, I deleted most of my poems, they were written in a variety of lengths, themes, and styles, but I have only managed to remember several of my shorter and simpler poems.

I get a sense that "most of my early works are gone for good", as I just "can't reconnect to the spark that created them", and "struggle to remember", more than a "few lines or stanzas, out of order".

Edit - dibs on "most of my works are gone for good" "can't reconnect to the spark that created them" "struggle to remember", " few lines or stanzas, out of order".

It's a shame, because if nothing else, they were unique and original, often receiving comments like "great lines" "powerful" "beautiful" "a fresh style of writing", "wow, this made me feel (insert positive expletives here)", etc, from other casual writers of course, but still, "not bad for a pleb".

And I would very much like "to have the originals somewhere at hand", perhaps "to modify or improve upon them, with fresh perspective", "but my mind is blank of them".

Any tips on remembering or re writing them?, I'm a little scared to do it from scratch, "concerned ill lose the magic of my originals in the process", but do you think it's worth "starting over again from the concepts?".

Also, this seems to have caused writers block, "as I began my writing journey, I felt inspiration and passion often", "which fueled the furnace of my intellectual workshop".

Although, that is something in itself, that I think I will write my next poem about lol, so I guess I still get a little inspired sometimes, dibs on the words "as I began my writing journey, I felt inspiration and passion often" "which fueled the furnace of my workshop".

But still, "I struggle to get over my missing poems". and "gravitate towards struggling to recover them", instead of "writing original pieces with passion again?", Im "stuck in a lost past I can never recover".

You know, "perhaps writing this experience is the next step", "grieving the loss and putting it to rest, once and for all".

After all, the poem seems to be writing itself lol, the "words just need a little seasoning, to become fully fledged poetry in their own right".

But still, I would appreciate advice from those who can relate, "how do I get the heart of my poetry back?".

And how do I stop it "from blocking my passion, causing endless writers block?", "should I rewrite my poems?, or move on without them?".

All advice is welcome and appreciated, and sorry for the silly dibs, but I feel like perhaps "I can mould some of these conceptual coincidences, into the first inspired work I've had in ages", perhaps calling it something like "furnace of creation" and perhaps writing something like "rekindling the passion, igniting the flame, alive in the furnace once again".

"It's kind of wild, I create concepts like this, while seeking advice on writers block", but I am glad I decided to give this forum a shot, "It appears to have benefited me already", now I just have to "take my material to the anvil, forge a new story from the flames", it may be the first poem I share here, "since it was created here, perhaps erratic sphere, is the fuel required, to ignite the fire", "words forged amidst the heat of adversity".

Anyway, well see, sincerely, B.

Hi guys, I'll read your responses, and answer clearly soon, but first ill answer the dibs thing, this was genuinely a query post seeking answers, which slowly a poem started developing naturally in the midst of, I hadn't formatted it yet, so began going a little crazy with dibs, to stake the words I was going to mould into a new poem, but with little modification, and quite by accident, the poem as it is turned into something I'm relatively happy with, and perhaps I only need to tweak it slightly.

But I understand the confusion and distracting nature of the dibs, so now that the poem is mostly complete, developed alongside my genuine questions, I will remove them from the forum post, but will keep them for my personal records, as this was a lot of fun, a spontaneous fluke, and though completely unintentional, I enjoyed it a lot.

But it is worth noting, it was never my intention to create a poem with this post, and I still seek answers to my questions, but anyway, I hope this clears up any confusion.

The poem I feel, is now mostly complete, after hours of editing, so if you want to read it as it will most likely appear when finished, only read the quoted text, and if you only want to answer the questions I have, read the post as a whole, without focusing too much on the quoted text.

The title I'm playing with for my poem just now is "in furnace of fire, the forge of creation.".

But anyway, thanks for reading, and for your responses, this was a lot of fun, B.

The unedited poem as it is just now, that I am still working on completing properly.

1. In Furnace Of Fire, The Forge Of Creation. unedited

ever since I truly discovered it,
I have tried a few approaches,
formatting examples within the poets work,
of commas and spacing,
by visual example,
that takes away some creative process from the creator,
even such trivial things, can have a potent effect on the work,
with such in my own poems,
to want their work to be wholly their own,
to work into their writing themselves,
I can't find the tool to do it,
I first came to appreciate poetry,
years ago,
most of my early works are gone for good,
can't reconnect to the spark that created them,
struggle to remember,
few lines or stanzas, out of order,
most of my works are gone for good,
can't reconnect to the spark that created them,
struggle to remember,
few lines or stanzas, out of order,
great lines,
powerful,
beautiful,
a fresh style of writing,
wow, this made me feel (insert positive expletives here),
not bad for a pleb,
to have the originals somewhere at hand,
to modify or improve upon them, with fresh perspective,
but my mind is blank of them,
concerned ill lose the magic of my originals in the process,
starting over again from the concepts?,
as I began my writing journey, I felt inspiration and passion often,
which fueled the furnace of my intellectual workshop,
as I began my writing journey, I felt inspiration and passion often,
which fueled the furnace of my workshop,
I struggle to get over my missing poems,
gravitate towards struggling to recover them,
writing original pieces with passion again?,
stuck in a lost past I can never recover,
perhaps writing this experience is the next step,
grieving the loss and putting it to rest,
once and for all,
words just need a little seasoning, to become fully fledged poetry in their own right,
how do I get the heart of my poetry back?,
from blocking my passion, causing endless writers block?,
should I rewrite my poems?, or move on without them?,
I can mould some of these conceptual coincidences, into the first inspired work I've had in ages,
furnace of creation,
rekindling the passion, igniting the flame, alive in the furnace once again,
It's kind of wild, I create concepts like this, while seeking advice on writers block,
It appears to have benefited me already,
take my material to the anvil, forge a new story from the flames,
since it was created here, perhaps erratic sphere, is the fuel required, to ignite the fire,
words forged amidst the heat of adversity.

[Julie Steiner]

Welcome, Barry!

A few tips:

Using the word "dibs" 47 times in a single post is very distracting. The way you are using it is new to me (perhaps a Scots/American cultural gap?), and I can't figure out what you want it to mean in this context. While I'm focused on puzzling that out, I can't give full attention to what you're saying.

It seems like a verbal tic that might feel natural in conversation, but in written form it's just annoying noise obscuring the signal. I think you'll communicate better without it.

(The use of quotation marks might also be a bit excessive, for some people's taste. I spend so much time wondering why you're using them that I lose focus on your actual message.)

On forms of critique:

Sometimes rewriting someone else's poem to show what you mean is the most convenient way of communicating your point, but if you do this, it's best to do so sparingly--for example, no more than one or two excerpts of the poem at a time.

The point of workshopping is not to make the poem the best it can be. The point is to make the poet the best they can be, and that can't happen unless they struggle with things for themselves. It's like the old story of the well-meaning child kindly helping a butterfly emerge from the cocoon, only to find that the butterfly can't take flight because it needed that physical effort in order for the wings to deploy properly. So it's better to suggest possible directions that the poet might take things, rather than rewrite.

On lost work:

I've accidentally lost years of my poetry several times (which one might think would make me vow to get my backup routine more rigorous, but so far it hasn't).

I think it's a waste of effort and energy to try to reproduce what the person you were then wrote. That person doesn't exist anymore. Put your energy and effort into what the person you are now wants and needs to write. It's fine to write about the same memories as before, but understand that the resulting poem is likely to be quite different, because you are.

On signatures:

Most people here don't use them, but the tiny "guidelines" link in the top left corner of most pages on the site has handy advice on all sorts of things, like how to insert tabs and other horizontal blank spaces (which are otherwise edited out of the display so that the left margin appears flush). I would suggest looking there.

Again, welcome!
Julie

[Allen Tice]

Wottheheck is dibs? All responses don’t have to be positive. When you get a negative blast or real dump, there’s usually a reason—and sometimes it even makes sense (certain members excepted). Watch and wait. Welcome. This place is like a sandbox, all sorts show up, including cats that just want to shit in the sand and leave. What Julie said.

[W T Clark]

Originally Posted by Julie Steiner

Welcome, Barry!









On forms of critique:

Sometimes rewriting someone else's poem to show what you mean is the most convenient way of communicating your point, but if you do this, it's best to do so sparingly--for example, no more than one or two excerpts of the poem at a time.

The point of workshopping is not to make the poem the best it can be. The point is to make the poet the best they can be, and that can't happen unless they struggle with things for themselves. It's like the old story of the well-meaning child kindly helping a butterfly emerge from the cocoon, only to find that the butterfly can't take flight because it needed that physical effort in order for the wings to deploy properly. So it's better to suggest possible directions that the poet might take things, rather than rewrite.

Julie's eloquence caused me to remember a comment made by Geoffrey Hill in an interview that a "perceptive critic" is not just a critic who's able to perceive and praise the positive technique and skill of a poet, but one who is also able to state how that poet is flawed and how those flaws can be rectified.
I'd advise you to be honest. If you find a poem exceedingly brilliant say so. If you find it exceedingly terrible likewise. Though rewriting I would accept, I think it is better to write up much of your thoughts in the most comprehensive manner, especially with an explanation of how you "read" interpreted the poem. I (mostly) try to be detailed whether that be positively or negatively. A one-sentence comment often isn't going to accomplish anything in line with the aims of a workshop: in that it isn't going to be helpful in providing critical commentary — most of the time!— But, I think, honesty is the most important factor. And irreverence.

Hope this helps.

[Barry J. M. Thomson]

Thanks for your response Clark, I'm sure I have many flaws, and being honest, I like how my poem turned out in the end, though I'm not sure I can be a good judge of quality, I'm uneducated, with little understanding of spelling, grammar, sentence structure, and no tutoring as part of a creative writing course, etc.

But I will say, I'm just a casual writer, writing what I enjoy, paying little attention to rules or expectations placed upon me from the outside, I like what I write, as I find it enjoyable, and I feel though it is often a little simple, most of my work is at least passable, and I have more than a few positive comments in my memory to confirm that much at least, its passable, casual, enjoyable poetry.

Not sure what your getting at with the recommendation to honesty though, I have been writing and re writing this post passionately for a number of hours, because I was enjoying myself, and the initial responses while I was still busy at work, show that it did not even appear to be passable to begin with at all.

I had no idea how it would turn out, I just noticed a few things while writing that inspired me, went with it, and tried to turn it into something poetic, I think it turned out ok in the end, but if what you are implying had any basis, I have to ask, would I not have instead made a completed post, showcasing the best of what I have written?, if nothing else, it was all written completly unplanned, in the heat of the moment, right before the eyes of the erato sphere, and in any case, a key element within poetry, at least in my opinion, is "try", so it doesn't matter if you fail, so long as you poe-try.

I wasnt thinking about outside opinion while writing, not wholly at least, though seeing the responses to the dibs period of the process, which I intended to stake my work until I could format it completely, did help to let me know that it would be a good idea to remove the dibs, once I was finished with the creative process.

But anyway, it doesn't really matter if the first draft, or any other draft really, of the resulting poem, is any good or not whatsoever, as it was a work of complete spontaneity, unplanned, un designed, left exactly as it was in order, just modified with seasoning within it's original context, at least for the most part as far as I remember it, to try to make what I had written sound a little better, a little more poetic, maybe I wasn't as successful as I would have liked, but I like it, and I liked writing it, it was fun, my only real aim, once I had given in to the creation process fully, was perhaps to tell an interesting story within a story, but I had no way of knowing if It would be successful or not, while I was still writing it and editing it, I just believed in the potential, got swept along with the inspirational feeling, and enjoyed myself in the process, why do you think I wrote dibs in the first place, it doesn't make sense as part of a poem, not the way I wrote it anyway, and that fact is also made clear amongst my responses, perhaps I am a less than competent poet?, but surely I'm not THAT bad, I was simply claiming my unfinished work, while I was still in the middle of writing it.

I'm not sure why you would suggest what you seem to have suggested, but it's ok, I know myself, I've always done my best to be honest, even at detriment to myself, particularly in the sight of others, appearing silly or foolish to them, being laughed at, etc, but I am who I am, I've been depressed about that for a long time, but I'm finally starting to accept myself, after year's of struggle and self hatred, and I will continue to be who I am from now on as well, as being alone in the world, I am the only person I have who can make me happy.

The opinions of others have ruled my life, for most of the last 20 years or so, but I've realised it doesn't really matter, I can't please 6 billion plus opinions, and I agree with less than half of their opinions anyway, so I'll just keep being myself, knowing who I am on the inside, oblivious to the negative criticism as best I can be, which always passes like mist in the wind regardless, and anyway, we will all be dead soon, so what does it really matter?.

Thanks for stopping by, B.

[R. Nemo Hill]

Barry, I believe W.T. Clark's comments about honesty did not refer to your poem, but in general to one's crits of the poems of others. His comment was, I believe, occasioned by this remark of yours in your original post: "I can't post my poems yet, as I am required to give positive responses on others work first, that's fine, but I wonder if someone could explain the etiquette a little for me."

You have gotten sidetracked from this original enquiry with your own poem on this thread. But I must respond to your question about etiquette. You acknowledge that you are not allowed to post a poem until you have shown good faith in critting the poems of others (and not in a "positive" way, this is not a vanity board, but simply in an "honest" way, as W.T. observes). Yet then you simply go and post a poem on this thread! Don't you see the contradiction there? In fact, there is a rule on the boards that poems are not to be posted on talk threads, but only on the prescribed poetry boards according to the rules. So (I say this in a friendly manner, and since you asked) you are in breach of the rules of eitquette of the boards.

As far as explaining these rules of eitquette, well, it is really quite simple. This poetry board, in order to thrive, needs writers who are as interested in the work of others as in their own work, as interested in the collection of selves gathered up here, as they are in their own selves. The strict rule that one must first crit the poems of others, well, it takes one's eyes off of oneself for a period of time, at least partially; and that is, in the end, quite healthy for both the individual writer and for this board where those individual writers are gathered.

This is also a somewhat advanced poetry workshop, so your profession about writing ("it was fun, my only real aim") rings a little out of tune with some of the arduous work that goes on up here. Just sayin'.

There is no hurry to crit and post instantaneously.
Sit back and observe, test the waters gradually.
That seems the best approach to becoming an active member here.

Respectfully,
Nemo

[Barry J. M. Thomson]

Nemo, thank you so much for your response, and my sincere apologies to clark.

Due to the condition of my mind, autism, mental illness, etc, I can sometimes misinterpret people, so again, I apologise.

I was aware, that it may not be a good idea to post this yet, and still have a concern of such in my mind, but it was honest deviation, not intended to be a poem at all to begin with, I just got swept up in something I felt I had to finish, to see the conclusion of, even if only for myself, I would like it to stay now that it's done, perhaps moved somewhere else?, but will work with whatever response the moderators deem necessary or appropriate, and feel such unlikely to occur again in future.

as to the advanced level of the forum, I haven't looked into the deep end yet, and have seen some incredible work, even within the metrical section, but though I describe myself as writing casual, enjoyable poetry, and though my work will no doubt be different, or unique, when compared to others, as is the work of all poets, regarding the poetry I have written in the past, after reading some of what is here in the forum, I don't feel completely out of my depth, I just need some guidance from more knowledgable poets regarding grammar and structure etc, to improve what I have already, whatever level that may prove to be in the end, in a sense, I'm here to learn my place poetically, seeking guidance, criticism, and suggestions, from writers more advanced than myself, and perhaps a little more qaulified, than the casual audiences I may be used to up to this point, I hope that is acceptable.

thank you both for taking the time to explain my queries of etiquette to me, I will try to abide by such better in future. B.

[Julie Steiner]

a key element within poetry, at least in my opinion, is "try", so it doesn't matter if you fail, so long as you poe-try.

Oh, dear. Barry, I strongly recommend that you read the guidelines for this community.

I think you are looking for a different kind of online poetry site. It doesn't sound as if you will be happy in one that describes itself like this:

Eratosphere caters to writers and artists who want to improve their own work, to help others in that process, and to exchange useful information. We try to maintain high standards of craft. As a posting venue, Eratosphere is not suitable for most beginners or for those who mainly seek mutual support and praise.

There are lots of "mutual support and praise" poetry sites. I think you would be more at home in one of those, because the following attitudes are not going to be well-received here:

But anyway, it doesn't really matter if the first draft, or any other draft really, of the resulting poem, is any good or not whatsoever, as it was a work of complete spontaneity, unplanned, un designed, left exactly as it was in order, just modified with seasoning within it's original context, [...]

Eratosphere is not a beginner’s forum or a place for early drafts. That's what the label says, right on the tin.

If you don't really care about your work's quality, why should we? And why should we waste time critiquing it, after your announcement that you are determined to be

oblivious to the negative criticism as best I can be, which always passes like mist in the wind regardless, and anyway, we will all be dead soon, so what does it really matter?.

There are very good reasons behind our rule requiring a certain number of substantive critiques of others' work before workshopping one's own poems here. There are also good reasons behind our rule against vanity-posting our own poems outside of the workshop threads. Editing the first post of this thread in order to get around these two rules does not make a good impression. It just announces that you don't like the way we do things. Well, we do like the way we do things here, and frankly, we are not going to make exceptions for you if you find that these rules cramp your style. So perhaps it's best that we part ways at this point.

[Roger Slater]

There's really no need to argue with him. He will lose interest very quickly and be gone before you know it.

[Barry J. M. Thomson]

Hm, it's a shame that my self expression is giving such a poor impression of me somehow, I don't quite understand that, but I agree with the posts you quoted Julie, and since I enjoy poetry so much, I would very much like to become a better poet, I have.posted on poet freak, and experienced the support you describe already.

I have considered taking extensive college courses to improve, English language and English literature, creative writing, perhaps copywriting courses etc.

and a number of people have remarked positively about the way I write, even with poor grammar, and I like to think, that what I lack in formal education, I make up for in imagination, and ability to think outside the box.

I'm happy to develop "in the heat of adversity", so I can find out one way or the other, if I may have any undeveloped natural ability, as others have suggested I have.

I may turn out to be dross in the end, I'm a very flawed individual, with many weaknesses, but I will not know for sure, until I have passed through the fire in the first place, so, unless I'm booted off, I'm here to stay, and hope those with little faith in me, will make peace with that fact, until I have proven myself, one way or the other, good or bad, even if only to myself alone.

I hope I can offer something to other poets, perhaps not grammatically until I have developed more, but I have bucket loads of creativity and imagination to share, perhaps seeing things in a different light will be enough?, I won't know until I have been here for longer, but either way, I'm here to stay, until I learn whether my potential really exists, or does not, one way or the other, Until then, with all due respect, you will just have to put up with my presence among you .