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  #61  
Unread 01-28-2023, 03:53 PM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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What in the world does that have to do with his work, or the effect he had on his students, Roger? Did you meet Bobby Dylan? What a gem he was in person.

Last edited by James Brancheau; 01-28-2023 at 04:05 PM.
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  #62  
Unread 01-28-2023, 08:31 PM
Tim McGrath Tim McGrath is offline
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James and RCL, there is no better novel than "Moby-Dick." Nothing rewards random and repeated reading like the quest for the great white whale. The language, the poetry, the prose-poetry, can be measured against the language of "Macbeth," which is considered the nonpariel, the ne plus ultra.

Julie Steiner, it's good to not self-identify as a poet, because the muse may abandon you. But what's the difference between a published poet and an unpublished one?

Joyce Carol Oates is a staggering talent, well deserving of a Nobel Prize. I find Gluck unreadable, but I love the short stories of JCO. Some of them are perfect.

I agree, Sarah-Jane, that there is a lot of talent out there. much of it untapped. Not everyone is equally gifted, though. Time and chance happeneth to us all.

I don't know much about Dickey's poetry, but I do know that I didn't like the movie.

I won a scholarship to an MFA program. maybe because I was the only formalist and maybe because the English Department, not the Director of the Writing Program, selected the winner. I took solo aim at Greensboro, searching for the ghost of Randall Jarrell. My talent, such as it was, had evaporated before the first semester. So I read promiscuously for the year. It was great

Last edited by Tim McGrath; 01-28-2023 at 09:37 PM.
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  #63  
Unread 01-29-2023, 10:05 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCL View Post
Was that novel better than Moby Dick about the dicks in Deliverance?
No, it wasn't. I don't recall what it was. I think he said something like "Melville wrote the great novel of the sea, and I have written the great novel of the air."

PS-- Sorry, I misread your comment as a real question, but I see it was a joke.
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  #64  
Unread 01-30-2023, 08:07 AM
Christine P'legion Christine P'legion is offline
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I've been thinking about this thread again, and it seems to me that when we're discussing poetry as a profession, it's important to define the way we're using our terms. For instance, I can think of four common meanings for "a professional":

(a) Someone who has earned a professional-level degree qualifying them to Do The Thing

(b) Someone who Does The Thing as their occupation or career

(c) Someone who has achieved a high level of skill and mastery in the Doing of The Thing

(d) Someone who is paid money to Do The Thing

So which do we mean? There can be overlap between all four of them with any of the others, but of course there isn't always.

I've been paid money, sometimes very good money, by people who want to publish or use my poems, but I don't have an MFA (if we consider than a 'professional' degree), don't look to poetry as my primary occupation, and I certainly wouldn't claim to have mastered the genre. So, am I a professional poet? Maybe not; but maybe.

(And this doesn't even touch any of the mental subdivisions of "professionalism" we might have in terms of poetry in particular: having other people publish your work for free; having other people publish your work for pay; publishing a chapbook; winning a contest; publishing a collection; being named poet laureate; blah blah blah etc.)
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  #65  
Unread 01-30-2023, 10:38 AM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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I realize that this is a digression from the main topic of the thread, but James, I think it's safe to say that Dickey's effect on his students—especially his female and gay male students—was influenced by the narcissistic sense of entitlement that Rogerbob glimpsed.

(And before someone whines about Cancel Culture, I'll contend that this essay is NOT unfairly applying contemporary standards to the sexist and homophobic behavior of a Great White Man. Predatory and bullying behavior has never been okay, even if the predators and bullies of the past could formerly get away with it more easily. And I'm not trying to cancel anyone, just to advocate for not letting artists' fame and/or artistic merit excuse their serious misbehavior. Personally, I found that that context added a lot to my reading of Dickey.)

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 01-30-2023 at 11:31 AM. Reason: Can't spell
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  #66  
Unread 01-30-2023, 12:23 PM
John Riley John Riley is online now
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Dickey read at my college. He was drunk and slobbering over the female students.

I wasn’t closely involved with arrangements but the old white male poet I got the best vibe from was W.D. Snodgrass. But what do I know? He may have been a Dick too.

The reader who touched me most was Muriel Rukeyser. She was elderly by then and while she was reading the lamp attached to the podium gave way and swung around. It only slightly touched her face but this whoosh of upset swept the room.

Edited back in to say that although he wasn’t a poet the grossest most disgusting writer I was around, and granted there weren’t so many, was Ken Kesey. It was in Boulder and apparently he came by occasionally for the girls. I saw him twice a year apart and he read the same story each time. Ginsberg would play his squeeze box and then he’d read and off to the party. Buddhist money well spent.

Last edited by John Riley; 01-30-2023 at 12:28 PM.
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  #67  
Unread 01-30-2023, 01:21 PM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is online now
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Dickey didn't say anything particularly sexist or homophobic when I saw him, so it's hard to explain just how repulsive the man came across nonetheless. His repulsiveness, however, may have changed my life. The Dickey reading was the first "date" I had with the woman who is now my wife. At one point during the Dickey reading, she leaned over and whispered in my ear, "The man is a pig." I was so relieved to hear her echo my thoughts that I think we permanently bonded at that instant! But really, you have to have been there to get a true sense of just how horrible he was.

And it wasn't just my own judgment. One of the first poetry gatherings I attended in college at someone's house had Phil Levine as a guest. One of the other guests complained about Dickey, and Levine answered something to the effect of, "You can still be a great poet even if you're a prick."
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  #68  
Unread 01-30-2023, 01:43 PM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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Yes, Julie, that's horrible and, even before I read (skimmed) the article, but read your comment, I was going to correct myself. There is a big difference between one's behavior and the effect that might have on one's students (including behavior that's not nearly as extreme as Dickey's) and separating the art from the artist. Two very different things and I shouldn't have lumped them together. When it comes to the latter, I firmly believe that's the only way to go, though (and I've said this before here) I'll never take issue with anyone about that when it comes to extreme cases. Woody Allen is quite the extreme case, but it doesn't take away from my appreciation of his films (including Manhattan). But if someone can no longer watch his movies, I understand completely. (I'd still think this would be hard to resist

https://youtu.be/3KZ6mIsbDc4

but, you know, I will be the last to protest such a stance. It was some really, really bad stuff.)
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  #69  
Unread 01-30-2023, 02:37 PM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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James, I think we're in agreement. In most cases, providing context about the artist does more good than depriving people of the right to make up their own minds about the art.
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  #70  
Unread 01-31-2023, 03:03 PM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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In my opinion, Doing the Thing is what makes someone a poet.

Not credentials. Not payment. Not publication history, or other forms of fame and glory.

Not even whether someone Does the Thing well.

Consider the Greek word for "poet":

     ποιητής

     I.one who makes, a maker, Xen., etc.
     II.the maker of a poem, a poet, Hdt., etc.
          2.generally, a writer, Plat.

The noun is derived from this verb:

     ποιέω

          Used in two general senses, make and do.

That suggests that when you're in a dry spell, you're not a poet. It doesn't mean you are more or less worthy as a person. Just that you are not Doing the Thing on a regular basis, at this particular time in your life.

Which is another reason why I'm not in a hurry to have business cards made. More often than not, it's not true that I am Doing the Thing.
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