[Susan McLean]

Achilles and Odysseus

Of course they hate each other. One, a sword;
the other, more a river than a rock.
Achilles, when Odysseus brings word
of what the king will give him to come back,
replies, "I hate like Hell's gates one who says
one thing and hides another in his heart."
As much as calls him liar—which he is—
although he stuck to facts in his report.
He mentioned no apology; there's none.
Achilles isn't wrong. Odysseus lies
to everyone: his father, wife, and son;
his men, his slaves, Athena in disguise.
Whatever gets him the desired result.
To him, Achilles is a pride-mad brat,
sharp as a blade, but wobbly in the hilt
and dangerous. Wrapped up in his conceit,
Achilles never takes advice except
from gods, whereas Odysseus pays heed
to everyone—slaves, herdsmen, girls in the street—
and follows their advice if it seems good.

Odysseus, on the shore of death's domain,
is hailed there by Achilles' prickly shade,
and tries to soothe and flatter him again,
praising his high esteem among the dead.
"Don't sweet-talk me about death," Achilles snaps.
"Better to be a poor man's half-starved farm hand
than king of the played-out dead." He turns his hopes
to hearing news about his distant homeland,
imagining men mistreating his old father,
asking about the son he never knew—
concerns Odysseus shares. How much he'd rather
be alive! He doesn't say "like you."

Revisions:
S1L7-10 was "As much as calls him liar—which he is. / Although he stuck to facts in his report, / he mentioned no apology: there's none. / Nor is Achilles wrong."
S1L13 was "his friends. He'll say whatever gets results."
S1L14-16 was "To him, Achilles is a pride-mad stomper, / sharp as a blade but wobbly in the hilts, / dangerous to rely on. Blinded by temper,"
S1L15 "hilt" was "hilts"
S2L1-2 was "Years later, on the shore of death's domain, / Odysseus meets long-dead Achilles' shade"
S2L12 "like" was "Like"

[Rick Mullin]

Hi Susan,

Overall, this is really good. I just finished reading Emily Wilson's translation of the Iliad (and I've read her Odyssey).

The first stanza is good in the extreme. The second stanza, starting with, and more or less because of, "Years later" is merely very good. As an experiment--eliminate all but the killer close of the second stanza and craft a grafting of it onto the first. Tell most of the second stanza without telling it. As an experiment.

Rick

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

I agree with Rick Susan this is extremely good in the first and struggles a little in the second. I think it lies in the nature of crafting a longer piece. You have set yourself such a high standard that it becomes obvious when you do not quite maintain it. The close however is perfect in so many respects. This is a first pass response only and please read it as such.

[Susan McLean]

Thanks, Rick and Jan. I am glad to hear this works for someone who knows The Iliad and The Odyssey well. I have tried to make a few changes to the start of S2 in order to imply more and state less of the obvious, but there are things in that stanza that I need in order to flesh out the full comparison of the two men, so there is much I can't cut and still do what I want to do.

I would be glad to hear, too, from readers who do not know the works in question, because there are several spots in which I fear confusion is likely for them. I can't keep repeating the two names in every line, but when I say "he" or "him," there is always a chance for misunderstanding. I taught the two works for nearly thirty years, so I know them too well to know what others won't catch. The intended audience is readers of The Classical Outlook, but I always want to be intelligible to the general reader as well.

Susan

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

It has been more years than I care to remember when the Iliad and the Odyssey were required reading but they stay with you. They come out a little dusty but you have triggered memories. Second and third reads.

One small nit Hades rather than Hell? Hades Gates will also scan better.

I shall return.

[Joe Crocker]

I would be glad to hear, too, from readers who do not know the works in question,

Hi Susan

I have never read any full translations of Homer. I remember children’s versions of the stories, but had forgotten about Odysseus visiting the underworld. So I guess I’m a reader whose perspective you might be interested in. Yes, the poem does work, and rather well. I love the classic metre and the mix of rhyme and half-rhyme. The narrative really drew me in.

Given that there are probably one or two good translations of The Odyssey already out there, then the question is: what is the purpose of your summary?. The answer, I guess is to draw out the differences between the protagonists Achilles and Odysseus, which again, I think you do successfully.

The whole poem seems to be leading to the final killer line. And that leads me to agree with Rick that maybe you could shorten the journey.

I did wonder a little about "stomped" which to a UK ear sounds a little slangish and modern. But in USA speak, perhaps not.

Cheers

Joe

[Carl Copeland]

Susan, I’m pretty familiar with the Iliad, though it’s been a while, so I had fun with this. A few thoughts:

I’m not sure I understand the statement that Odysseus mentioned no apology, although he stuck to the facts. I keep thinking the sense is this:

As much as calls him liar—which he is—
although he stuck to facts in his report.
He mentioned no apology: there's none.

“Nor is Achilles wrong” is of course redundant, since we’ve already been told that Achilles called Odysseus a liar, “which he is.” I don’t think it’s necessarily a problem, though.

I agree with Joe about “stomper.” It sounds “slangish and modern” to my American ear as well and broke the spell for a moment.

I’m also unsure about “wobbly in the hilts.” A sword has one hilt, doesn’t it? And Achilles, as a metaphorical sword, never wobbled when he was in action. Not that I can recall. The problem was, he wouldn’t come out of his sheath.

I’m struggling a little to understand the “killer close,” but this is what I’ve got: Achilles wants to live, just not the deceitful, dishonorable way Odysseus does. I guess the force of it is that Achilles would trade places with a half-starved farmhand, but not with Odysseus.

[Carl Copeland]

Forgot to mention the rhymes: I still don’t have an ear for consonant rhymes, but I must say that even when I went back hunting for them, I was baffled by the last quatrain of S1. I’m a sucker for assonance, so “heed/street” looked good to me—but “except/good”? Ok, I figured it out, but it doesn’t work for me—not yet anyway.

[Susan McLean]

Jan, you are right that "Hades' gates" is more accurate, though it doesn't improve the rhythm of the line to my ear, and I think a general reader might actually find "Hell's gates" clearer.

Joe, the poem is not a summary, but a comparison and interpretation. Homer never actually says that the two men hate each other, but I thought it comes out in the subtext of the two scenes I am focusing on. Here it is common to say that someone "stomped off in a huff." I originally had "brat" instead of "stomper," and I may go back to that. Achilles is quite a bit younger than Odysseus.

Carl, I was trying to imply that Odysseus was lying by omission by never mentioning the apology that is what Achilles really wants. But one could also see it as just being diplomatic. He is trying to imply that the offered gifts are equivalent to an apology, but they are not. See my comment to Joe on "stomper." A sword does have just one hilt, but I get the impression that a blade could be inserted into a hilt, so that a hilt could have more than one blade or a blade more than one hilt. I remembered a line from Webster's The Duchess of Malfi: "loose i' the hilts." Also, it is a better rhyme with "results." I'm trying to imply that Odysseus sees Achilles as unreliable, likely to do anything. In the conclusion, I am trying to imply that Achilles can't bear to admit that Odysseus' way of life had better results than his own did.

Susan

[Rick Mullin]

I like Hell's gates.