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04-06-2022, 10:30 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saeby, Denmark
Posts: 3,228
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Catullus 13 and the Petrarchan sonnet
I was reading Catullus 13 today and noted it had 14 lines. Not only that, but it is clearly divided into an octet and a sestet with a volte: "Sed..." ("But...") Might this have been the inspiration for the Petrarchan sonnet?
Duncan
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04-06-2022, 10:45 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: TX
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Petrarch was a devoted classical scholar and collector of manuscripts, but a quick google confirms that there are Italian sonnets produced by the C13th court of Frederick II in Sicily. I guess there are no known earlier Occitan sonnets. Dante wrote sonnets before Petrarch’s birth.
Cheers,
John
Update: this is Allen’s turf, but I believe Catullus was rediscovered post-sonnet around 1300 - in time for Petrarch though. BTW I descend from Thomas Wyatt, who brought the form to English.
Last edited by John Isbell; 04-06-2022 at 10:52 AM.
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04-06-2022, 10:54 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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Okay, John, but my question still stands.
Duncan
PS Very nice with the Wyatt ancestry!
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04-06-2022, 10:57 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: TX
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Petrarch was born in 1304. He may well, from what I know of his love of Classics, have noted the Catullus and found inspiration there. But the form predates Catullus’s rediscovery, and that matters.
Cheers,
John
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04-06-2022, 10:58 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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Thanks re: Wyatt! I also descend from his son, who was hanged, drawn and quartered by Bloody Mary.
Cheers,
John
Update: google again. Petrarch read and admired Catullus in the Verona Codex post-1347. Petrarch was a famous MS. collector, but he evidently lacked Catullus.
Last edited by John Isbell; 04-06-2022 at 11:23 AM.
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04-06-2022, 12:46 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Plum Island, MA; Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 11,175
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I'm getting confused, John. Was your Choctaw grandparent a descendant of Thomas Wyatt? And was he also Jewish? Or were those all separate branches of the family? I swear, there's a poem there. But I suspect you may have already written it.
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04-06-2022, 01:15 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: TX
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Hi Michael,
John Riley has a Choctaw grandparent. I don’t. I’ve called my family half-Jewish because quite literally, of eleven nieces and nephews, five are Jewish. I think that justifies the epithet. I am however also about 18% Norwegian, says the DNA, so expect a Norwegian poem in short order. I do have one short Thomas Wyatt poem, which is not terrible IMO.
Cheers,
John
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04-06-2022, 02:33 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Plum Island, MA; Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 11,175
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Sorry, John. I was thinking of this post of yours:
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Isbell
We have a detailed family tree tracing our line back to Pocahontas.
I donate fairly regularly to Native American causes, and have two Zuni rings on my two hands.
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I'm afraid my family tree only goes back to Ellis Island and the Lower East Side. Whenever anybody asked where we were from, my grandmother's answer was "Grand by Orchard."
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04-06-2022, 02:51 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: TX
Posts: 6,630
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Hi Michael,
Yes, Pocahontas and John Rolfe are also in my family tree, though I now wear just the one Zuni ring. She and Thomas Wyatt are undoubtedly the big names on the tree until you get back to royalty. Also, my grandpa ran the Pentagon in WW II, and my dad invented the Isbell Theorem. Sorry. My Norwegian great-grandma did arrive via Ellis Island, though, or so I’m told.
Anyhow. Yes, I am in DNA terms an American mutt, or a percent, as I was once told in Minneapolis. For my part, I usually say I’m from Seattle but we moved around a lot.
Cheers,
John
Update: well, Pocahontas was royalty. That’s why she met Elizabeth and John Rolfe didn’t.
Last edited by John Isbell; 04-06-2022 at 02:57 PM.
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04-06-2022, 04:11 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Old South Wales (UK)
Posts: 6,697
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Thought better of it.
Last edited by Ann Drysdale; 04-06-2022 at 04:14 PM.
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