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  #31  
Unread 04-08-2021, 01:45 PM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Mark, in your household, did you read the original version of The Sleeping Beauty, in which the king impregnates her with twins while she's still sleeping and can't give consent, and then he murders his wife when she objects to his adultery?

No? But isn't that a classic story, too? Don't children need to stay in close touch with history, through exposure to what was once thought to be acceptable children's entertainment, but no longer is?

Times change.

The alternatives for the representation of non-Whites in children's literature were once limited to stereotypes or nothing at all. But this is no longer the case. There's no need to cling to Dr. Seuss's problematical representations by claiming that without them, there would be no diversity. That's just not true.

This passage from one of Seuss's biographers suggests that Geisel would have [Edited to say: Nah, that's too presumptuous--"might have" is more like it] been concerned if he had realized that even after his amendments to the "Chinaman," his depiction might still contribute to negative experiences for minority kids:

Quote:
Before Ted reached his tenth birthday, his family suffered a dramatic change in status, resulting from the anti-German prejudice of World War I. After the war broke out, in 1914, Geisel's German identity became a negative principle, the quicklime in which the family's reputation dissolved. Ten endured verbal abuse and threats of physical violence as he traveled to and from school each day. Schoolmates yelled, "Hun!" "Drunken Kaiser!" and, more ominously, "Kill the Kaiser's Kid!"as they threw rocks and brickbats at Ted and his sister, Marnie. Geisel's memories of his childhood would later oscillate between recollections of privileged security that derived from his paternal grandfather's status in Springfield society and the anxiety he experienced as the target of anti-German prejudice.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4141409...o_tab_contents
(The whole article is actually pretty interesting, and discusses Seuss's "Springfield Cycle" books, all three of which are among the six that are no longer being published. Everyone has free access to 100 JSTOR articles for free by logging in.)

If many (not all, but still many) people of color today say that they find Dr. Seuss's ethnic portrayals either downright offensive, or simply limiting...and if many (not all, but many) adult Asian Americans say that their White classmates took the reinforcement of stereotypes like those in Dr. Seuss's books as permission to torment them for their differences...why can't the books with problematic content be retired, to make room for some of the TONS of other good children's books (including many by Seuss himself) that are not burdened by that baggage?

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 04-08-2021 at 02:43 PM.
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  #32  
Unread 04-08-2021, 03:28 PM
Martin Elster Martin Elster is offline
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Mark and Julie,

Thanks for conveying your various thoughts and views. It’s all interesting and I’m learning things.

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Originally Posted by Julie Steiner View Post
If many (not all, but still many) people of color today say that they find Dr. Seuss's ethnic portrayals either downright offensive, or simply limiting...and if many (not all, but many) adult Asian Americans say that their White classmates took the reinforcement of stereotypes like those in Dr. Seuss's books as permission to torment them for their differences...why can't the books with problematic content be retired, to make room for some of the TONS of other good children's books (including many by Seuss himself) that are not burdened by that baggage?
Julie - That reminded me of this episode I just watched a couple of days ago. I think you would enjoy it. (I’ve been watching episodes from the first season the last few days on Amazon Prime Video. I especially enjoyed the Pilot Part 1 & 2, which is about residents at a retirement home called Havencrest.)

Highway to Heaven - Season 1, Episode 11: Dust Child

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp-UVhXzjog

“Dust child”:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bụi_đời

Last edited by Martin Elster; 04-08-2021 at 04:34 PM.
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  #33  
Unread 04-08-2021, 03:40 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Hey Julie,

I suppose my last post covered everything I thought I had to say about this, including my key point that rather than being withdrawn the books could simply have been updated (like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and many others). I'd like it to be up to individual adults to decide what they read or what they allow or encourage their children to read in what will always be an imperfect world. It isn't about the folly of "clinging on" to Seuss or "making room" for other books. There's no lack of room. I'm not suggesting these books be mandatory or that individual libraries or schools be forced to promote or even stock them (hardly anyone was reading them anyway). I just don't like banning books.

I don't want to argue any more because I like you too much and I know this is a subject that's personally close to you. Also, I accept I'm probably onto an unpopular loser. As someone instinctively on the political left in most areas, I don't really want to be arguing for positions that are similar to ones that people who appear on Fox News take, and I sometimes wish they weren't the only ones taking them. I certainly don't want to be arguing for the continuation of racial bullying, if that's what you think the position I'm taking entails. All I can say is I've thought about this carefully and something just doesn't sit right with me about it, and many other things like it. You've probably gathered that by now.

Much love and respect to you.

Mark

(edited down, because for someone saying "I don't want to argue with you any more" I did a lot of arguing initially.)

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 04-09-2021 at 03:23 PM.
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  #34  
Unread 04-09-2021, 02:01 PM
Martin Elster Martin Elster is offline
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Mark, I don't like the thought of banning books, either. And I agree with this also:

Quote:
...rather than being withdrawn the books could simply have been updated (like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and many others). I'd like it to be up to individual adults to decide what they read or what they allow or encourage their children to read in what will always be an imperfect world.
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  #35  
Unread 04-09-2021, 05:07 PM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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Would you want your kids to watch culturally sensitive hardcore porn, Mark? I mean, probably it's better, generally. But, banning stuff isn't necessarily along political lines. It's just common sense. I wouldn't want my kids, hypothetical kids (I think) to take that portrayal of asians to heart, for example.
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  #36  
Unread 04-10-2021, 12:23 AM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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But James, an author would surely expect pushback if they tried to put hardcore porn into a children's book.

In contrast, an author trying to expand children's cultural horizons by presenting a less limited range of humanity--surely a good impulse, but a taboo-strewn minefield if the implementation is clumsy--probably wouldn't expect that sort of pushback. Especially if their work is being judged decades later.

As authors ourselves, we are probably all at least a bit concerned about having our artistic freedom curtailed and our character impugned. It happens fairly frequently, in varying degrees, right here on our own Accomplished Members board, when people can't resist commenting on the editorial stance of a particular venue that someone has chosen to publish in. I've been on both ends of those sorts of judgments. And the idea that certain people aren't allowed to write from certain perspectives, no matter what, can rankle. The more adventurous among us will probably want to experiment to figure out the boundaries of what's acceptable and what's not. Even so, with some notable exceptions, the consequences of getting it wrong are usually far more serious for the people being misrepresented than for the authors.

Since my own kids, and 100% of my nine nieces and nephews, are half white and half Asian (either Chinese, Persian, or Indian), I'm far more interested in the perspectives of young readers, and in possible negative impacts on them and among their classmates as a result of stereotyped cultural depictions, than in the possible negative impacts for writers and artists, who are adults, and generally have more of a choice about risking negative attention.

I'm currently reading Arthur Ransome's mostly-wonderful Swallows and Amazons series to my half-Indian nieces, as I did to my half-Chinese daughters at their age, but there are frequent mentions of casual white supremacist/colonialist attitudes toward "natives" and "savages" and "Eskimos" that require some comment. And I'm skipping Peter Duck and Missee Lee entirely, since those two books are wayyyyy too racist to salvage, even though in general, Ransome's portrayal of realistic, smart, brave female characters alongside his realistic, smart, brave male characters is pretty awesome. It's quite refreshing after reading The Hobbit, in which the only named female character was Belladonna Took, Bilbo's deceased ancestor.

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 04-10-2021 at 01:39 AM.
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  #37  
Unread 04-10-2021, 05:43 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Hey Julie,

I did say I didn't want to argue any more and I assume/hope that's why you didn't respond directly to me. I hope I didn't finally manage to piss you off, in other words. Anyway, I'm back, which is probably very annoying of me. Sorry. But I want to show where I think we are in agreement. You said

Quote:
I'm currently reading Arthur Ransome's mostly-wonderful Swallows and Amazons series to my half-Indian nieces, as I did to my half-Chinese daughters at their age, but there are frequent mentions of casual white supremacist/colonialist attitudes toward "natives" and "savages" and "Eskimos" that require some comment.
This seems like exactly the sort of good, responsible parenting (aunting?) I had in mind when I said about the Seuss "Mulberry Street" book

Quote:
I question the idea that children must necessarily have their literature shorn of any notion that some of it was written in the past, where people did and thought different things. What reasonable parents, including Chinese ones, reading to their pre-schooler and encountering this image, couldn't simply say "y'know, this is quite an old book and in the olden days when Dr Seuss wrote this, people in America and Europe used to think it was funny that Chinese people used chopsticks to eat but now we're much more used to different ideas from all around the world, aren't we?"
I suppose after all the talk it comes down to the simple question of whether one thinks the Seuss books should have been banned or not. Not whether they are culturally outdated, or should be recommended reading, or how offensive or potentially harmful any individual personally finds them on a scale of 1 to 10. But whether they should actually be banned. James, for instance, thinks it's "common sense" that they should and many seem to agree.

I know slippery slope arguments are annoying and can sound alarmist and, again, Fox News-ish but is there really any reason why, if the Seuss Estate has set this precedent, other publishers might not feel pressured into following suit? In three, or six months or a year isn't it feasible we might be having the same conversation about the Ransome novels or any number of others?

Basically, since offence and emotional/psychological harm (rather than physical harm) are in the eye of those claiming the offence, there's no reason why any book with representations that don't match up to current standards of acceptability couldn't be next.

I think there are people who would see this as a good thing and would welcome a grand, sweeping cull of books containing representations, or lack of representations, now deemed problematic. I wouldn't. I think people should be informed, I think cultural conversation and debate should happen openly and freely, I think people should be free to criticise and question and even mock the status of past cultural icons and I think diversity in current children's literature should be encouraged. And, of course, any parent is free to avoid any books that these debates have led them to believe may be harmful. But I think as a principle, the outright banning of books should always be an absolute last resort and your experience with reading Ransome to your daughters and nieces suggests you might agree.

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 04-10-2021 at 11:44 AM.
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  #38  
Unread 04-10-2021, 01:02 PM
John Riley John Riley is offline
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Again, guys, the heirs and executors and profit-makers decided it was in their best interest to do away with the books that are filled with very racist drawings. They decided that it is best for the Dr. Seuss image to remove them from the backlist. No one made them do it that I know of so I honestly don't know what all the hoopla is about. Right-wingers have again hooked people by the nose. There is so much silly crap going on now. I recently read a quote in which an activist said there was no difference between Jefferson Davis and Abraham Lincoln. Now that's stupid censorship based on ignorance and I think the attempt of someone to jump out in front of the parade pushing revisionism. The fact the Suess estate did this makes perfect sense to me. They are children's books. There are plenty of remnants of Steppin' Fetchit racism out there on YouTube to enjoy if that is your thing, but these are children's books and they made a responsible decision.
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  #39  
Unread 04-10-2021, 01:21 PM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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Mark, I don't know why you use the word "banned," since nothing has been banned. You can't ban yourself. If I write a poem that I conclude is in bad taste for whatever reason, and therefore I don't seek to publish it, I have not been banned. If I publish a poem in a magazine but then decide it is in bad taste so I won't put it in a collection, I have not been banned. That's such a loaded, question-begging term, and it is not accurately applied to the Seuss situation. Let's not confuse this situation with libraries and schools refusing to allow certain books on their shelves.

By the way, I think Horton Hears a Who is one of the great works of children's literature, and certainly one of the most politically correct as well. Another great work of children's literature is Browning's Pied Piper of Hamelin, in which a homocidal maniac kills all the children in a town over a contract dispute with the mayor.

Last edited by Roger Slater; 04-10-2021 at 01:23 PM.
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  #40  
Unread 04-10-2021, 03:15 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Roger, you're right, "ban" isn't quite the right word. I try to avoid hyperbole as much as I can and I think I've been using the word "withdrawn" up until my last post. I think I stand by my opinions otherwise. I do think the whole "you can't cancel yourself" idea is a little disingenuous. You can certainly be put under a lot of persuasive pressure to do so, as in the case of the Amanda Gorman translator recently discussed here, who "voluntarily" stepped down. I think if more publishers begin following suit with older books containing "problematic" content, then the difference between "withdrawn" and "banned" will become purely semantic. I hope that doesn't happen but I don't feel massively confident. Maybe I've just been "hooked by the nose" by right-wingers, as John says. I don't feel like I have. Most of what I've read about this has come from the BBC and the Guardian. I'm not losing sleep over this but my discomfort at it feels completely reasonable to me, though apparently not to many others.

This article suggests to me there will be other similar things to come. A "reckoning". Perhaps it is a good thing. There's no guarantee that Julie won't lose her Swallows and Amazons though.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...cancel-culture

And it seems I might lose one of my childhood favourites, The Indian in the Cupboard, a book I remember as having a clear message about tolerance and the dangers of stereotyping.

Quote:
Nel pointed to The Indian in the Cupboard series by Lynne Reid Banks – Penguin Random House titles about a toy figure of a Native American that comes alive, first published in 1980, as an example of a book that remains in print without comment or apology.
“There’s a lot of examples of contemporary as well as older work that the publishing industry should address,” he said

https://www.avclub.com/the-indian-in...d-l-1798244319

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 04-11-2021 at 01:47 AM.
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