[Jim Moonan]

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(Whenever Carl is in the mix of a discussion, I usually just stand back and let him say what I would say if I could see like he does : )

But I'm going to take advantage of the opportunity to simply say what a pleasure this poem is. I’m coming back to this after a few days and getting more and more from it. You’ve gotten enough critique from others so that I don’t feel obligated to scour each line for its worth. I accept it all. It has spell-binding qualities and epiphanic overtones.

I sometimes make the mistake of thinking that the best poems are the ones that are widely read and loved. But the fact is, good poetry is an intensely personal artistic expression that can be considered a success if even one person notices it. Not exactly a high bar, I know. But it’s a different kind of bar. The only poem that fails is the poem that no one ever reads. And if one person finds it good, then it's good.

There is something magical about the way this poem moves in and out of dreams and how one dream ignites another. It’s what I imagine alchemy is intended to produce. I think it is warm and sensual and celestial and dark and light (I love the word "chiaroscuro"). The emerging image of the moon as being feminine gives the ending an animated, surreal feel. It's great.

It is so tightly written. I thought maybe “Visitation” had too much of a religious connotation, but when I think about it again the one other application that is suited to be titled “Visitation” would be dreams.

This line is full of movement: "swirling scarves of black-shot clouds" It’s like a van Gogh painting.

And "full-fledged moon" is so gorgeous description of the moon I find it hard to believe it hasn’t been used before. Maybe it has. But it fits this poem perfectly.

One of the reasons why I love poetry so much is because there’s always a possibility that it will open up to me if I come back and give it a chance. I’m glad I did this one.

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[Alexandra Baez]

Susan, oh no, I’m so sorry I somehow missed your comment before!

A slant rhyme in S1 Ls 1 and 3? It hadn’t occurred to me that it was one because “beyond’ ends with two consonants, not just the d, so its sonic relationship with “side” is very weak. I’m not sure if I’ve ever heard such cases discussed, so I don’t know if there’s a prevailing opinion on them. I have been much more conscious of the slant rhyme in S1 Ls 1 and 2 (“side” and “night”—not only are assonance rhymes more perceptible, there’s no muddiness in the parallel here), and I was wondering if anyone might perceive that as a problem. It seems that if I were to acknowledge the slant in S1 Ls 1 and 3 by featuring either a slant or whole rhyme in the same positions in S2, then I’d have to do the same with Ls 1 and 2.

In any case, your suggested alternative is not bad, at least in itself. While I had liked the contrasting s words in “sprang” and “subtly,” “imperceptibly” brings its own contrast with “sprang” by being such a long word. It’s good to know you were bothered by “subtly,” too. I guess I’ll have to mull the slant rhyme matter and decide whether overall, things seem more or less cohesive with a full rhyme in S2 Ls 1 and 3.

[Alexandra Baez]

Jim, hello, so good to hear from you again!

One of the reasons why I love poetry so much is because there’s always a possibility that it will open up to me if I come back and give it a chance. I’m glad I did this one.

Me, too! So what happened to this from your last comment:

But I think, too, that there is room here to improve its buoyancy.

? Have you changed your mind?

Anyway, I’m so glad you feel that the poem “has spell-binding qualities and epiphanic overtones,” because I was striving for both. “Epiphanic” has a religious connotation, like “visitation,” right?--even though the former’s application spreads wider. I’m really happy to hear that you’re responding, too, to the weaving in and out, the separateness-yet-intertwinedness that I was trying to evoke, and, yes, alchemic feel of the incident. Did you get the parallel of the n with her dark bedding and light moonshine-sheets, to the moon with her black and white scarves of clouds? And their mutual coverings and uncoverings? As often as I've tried to follow these parallels through to the end, they start to founder when the n and the moon intersect, and I still haven’t been able to quite figure out how all the lines of symbolism (see below) could, much less should, work, but I didn’t want the poem to try too hard, either, because it started out as a simple nature poem and I mainly just wanted to project back what I’d experienced. Part of what makes nature raw and compelling is its resistance to understanding.

I think it is warm and sensual and celestial and dark and light (I love the word "chiaroscuro").

Warm—now that’s one word I hadn’t thought to apply to this, with its “coolly” in the last line! It’s intense, though, so warm in that sense. I love “chiaroscuro,” too, and I'm happy to have unexpectedly fit it into a poem.

The emerging image of the moon as being feminine gives the ending an animated, surreal feel. It's great.

Wow, good to hear! I’ve read this thing so many times by now that it’s hard to know how I’d really perceive it unprimed.

It is so tightly written.

Thank you! I wish you could see the pile of drafts that led up to this.

I thought maybe “Visitation” had too much of a religious connotation, but when I think about it again the one other application that is suited to be titled “Visitation” would be dreams.

Oh, I think I had briefly thought of that, and it makes sense. I chose the title because the experience felt awe-inspiring--no mere visit, for sure. But as to religious (or spiritual) connotation, you also can’t overlook the “unmoved mover” of the last line—a very direct (Aristotelian) reference to God. I only recently realized how an earlier version of this poem (without that phrase) could be perceived as an allegory of spiritual awakening. Once I did, I tried to gently center things around that concept, because I tend to prefer poems that have layers, including a symbolic one. So the moon here can be seen as the feminine aspect of God, creeping upon us unawares but dazzling us in her own quiet yet insistent, mystical way once—or if—we awake. If we're receptive enough, we'll cast aside our trappings of oblivion then to open into the greatest dream of all—this time, “dream” in the sense of an astonishing highest reality, dream-seeming only because we’ve become so used to our more limited delusional “reality.” In the highest state, like the moon and unlike the restless n, we’ll be equally unaffected by darkness and any forms of light lesser than that of the Source itself.

But the fact is, good poetry is an intensely personal artistic expression that can be considered a success if even one person notices it . . . The only poem that fails is the poem that no one ever reads.

Hmm, I’d go even farther and say that if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, that it still made a sound. And oughtn’t we, too, to consider the poem’s effect (in both the writing and the reading) on its writer him- or herself when assessing its success?

And if one person finds it good, then it's good.

Mmm, I’m not sure I’d go that far, but I appreciate your magnanimity of spirit.

This line is full of movement: "swirling scarves of black-shot clouds" It’s like a van Gogh painting.

Thanks—the scene created a strong impression of a juxtaposition of unworldy turbulence against a backdrop of stasis, that I was keen to capture.

And "full-fledged moon" is so gorgeous description of the moon I find it hard to believe it hasn’t been used before. Maybe it has. But it fits this poem perfectly.

Oh, I’m glad you like it! I was hoping to find some sort of adjective that meant “a ruler at the peak of her power” to go with “silver-crowned,” but “full-fledged,” which I’d tried before, was the closest I could come. In any case, in this draft, I was eager to avoid simply saying “a full moon,” and I also finally realized that it would be best to wait till near the end to actually explicitly identify this moon.

By the way, do you feel any special affinity with the moon on account of your last name? There are all sorts of things you could do with the name-reference part of the last line of a ghazal.

Well, Jim, your comments really boosted my spirits this evening. You’re “getting” so many things about this poem that I’ve hoped people would.

[Tony Barnstone]

Some comments on this lovely poem:

Visitation


My bedding lay in rumples at my side:
I rambled dimly in the dreams of night—

RUMPLES and RAMBLED very nice internal slant, echoed by the DIMLY DREAMS consonance


but through the room and soaring woods beyond,
wide, threadless sheets of pressing, pearly light

PRESSING, PEARLY continuing that sound mode, but with soaring, wide, threadless that makes 5 adjectives in two lines. At least two of them are verbs functioning as adjectives, so that helps. Maybe consider using noun-adjectives to mix things up a bit?

fell over everything. I woke. My sphere
had boldened to a spectral fairyland.

Nice moment. BOLDENED is odd but I think I like it. Yet can a sphere bolden? The metaphor is off.

Was any being conscious that the shift
sprang up—or did it subtly expand?

Not sure this is set up right. One being is conscious: the narrator. To refer to a more supernatural being you could be more precise. Does a shift spring? The nature of a shift is more subtle than a spring, so that bit worried me.

I stared, then pulled away from sleeptime’s shrouds
into this greater dream that shone around:

Staring is a very awake, active action, not something one does when still fuzzy and wrapped in sleepiness.

above, in swirling scarves of black-shot clouds,
a full-fledged moon reigned coolly. Silver-crowned,

These two lines, like those above, are VERY adjectival. I do like the compound adjs., but still that is 4 double adjectives in two lines!

she let the chiaroscuro have its sport
across her—unmoved mover of this court!

Like others, I enjoyed the reference to the Prime Mover, yet found the combination of personification (the moon is "she") but also of explanation (not really spectral, just moonlight) to be anticlimactic.

In brief, though I quibbled about bits along the way I was enjoying the poem a lot until the final couplet, which felt like a letdown. No magic, just moonlight. No epiphany, just nature. Yet the moon is presented as SO personified in her lack of person (unmoved), letting the chiaroscuro do what it will, wearing a moon-crown, that the poem asks us to consider her a sky goddess. But then my question is -- and? In other words, I think you are on the verge of either a Romantic or an anti-Romantic poem about nature ("An Old Man's Winter Night," "The Wood Pile," "The Snow Man," etc.) and so I'd like the poem to push into that debate further. Mind as mirror? Mind as lamp? Nature as screen? As red in tooth and claw? Note how Frost will have his spirit in nature and his existentialism, too: through phrases such as "perhaps" or "as if" that open to the Romantic before the door gets shut again. So, basically, I love the execution and want the theme to go deeper! Hope this helps, Tony

[Joe Crocker]

The “threadless sheets of pressing, pearly light” were lovely but I wrongly read the “fell over everything” at the start of the next stanza as meaning that your visitor had got tangled up in your rumpled bedding and had literally fallen over and this was what woke you up! Oops. (Something like “covered” or “blanketed” rather than “fell”?)

I also had difficulty trying to work out the last lines of S2 ie

Was any being conscious that the shift
sprang up—or did it subtly expand?

It sounds like you are wondering if you have been gifted a private vision of this moonlit wonderland or whether others also able to share the vision? I think it’s the “shift sprang up” that’s tripping me up.

In S3L1 I’m not sure about “sleeptime”. It feels slightly childish. Could you go with “sleeping shrouds” or “nighttime’s shrouds”?

The “swirling scarves of black-shot clouds” were intriguingly atmospheric. And atmosphere is what the poem is about I think.

[Jim Moonan]

(Thanks for always being so engaged in the dialog with your and other’s postings. For me, when it gets to be this robust a dialog, it becomes something of an encore to the poem itself. )

Chiming back in to say yes to Joe’s one-word “atmospheric” to describe the vibe (not my favorite word: vibe, but can find another) throughout.
Tony makes a valid technical point about “boldened” but for me it only adds to the atmospheric quality so I’d be careful to tweak that for fear of dispelling the mood. Personally, I think it effectively animates “sphere” to be alive.

The poem continues to give me pleasure. It has a sumptuous sensory quality to it that never pales on repeated readings.

I noted that S2 and S3 end with a question mark and exclamation point respectively. It makes me wonder if S1 should as well. An exclamation point would work… I don’t know why. Just wondering.

I’m responding to this using my phone so I’m beginning to feel claustrophobic. If I have to come back I will : )

[David Callin]

Hi Alexandra. A few random thoughts on this ...

"in rumples" is an interesting phrase that I haven't come across before. I wonder whether there might be a better word than "rumples" - somewhere.

"subtly" presents itself to me - here - as trisyallbic too, although my usage is usually just the two, I think.

It seems to me a full-blown Romantic poem - quite a Visitation. The effect it had on you comes through clearly in the poem - right down to that closing question mark! You've given your inner Romantic free rein here - or possibly reign.

Cheers

David

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

Hi Alexandra,

I do not understand why you have broken the octet into two stanzas and then enjambed across them.

[Alexandra Baez]

Wow, thank you all for this flotilla of excellent new feedback! I'm going to post Tony's reply separately first, because it's pretty long.

Tony, wow, what a thorough and incisive critique—thank you! You put your finger on a key point that has troubled me with this poem from the first—its pull in both Romantic and anti-Romantic directions. The truth is, I’ve never been sure how to honor or merge both impulses within one cohesive poem. More on this at the end.

I’m glad you like the sonic touches you mentioned. But yes, I’ve been keenly aware of the raft of adjectives in certain parts of this and have simply struggled to fill certain spaces without them, especially without breaking the sense of Romance. Right now, at your good suggestion, I'm going to try a noun used as an adjective to impart some variety in S1. Pre-thread, I’d tried various alternatives with an unmodified “woods,” but they were monosyllabic and a bit wordy; and with “forestland,” but that wasn’t an accurate representation. Now I’m trying “woodland stretch” in place of “soaring woods.” While it somewhat relieves the feeling of adjective overload in S1, I don’t think it generates the sense of awe that my previous words did. Still, maybe that’s not critical, with all that follows? What do you think? [Update: now I'm feeling like "stretch" as a noun manages to sneakily capture some of the stretching sense of "soaring," while "woodland stretch" feels more grounded in reality with less adjective-ness than "soaring woods."]

BOLDENED is odd but I think I like it. Yet can a sphere bolden? The metaphor is off.

I think in poetry-land, it should be able to and maybe it even ought to! After all, a sphere can “brighten,” and it and “bolden” are only a few steps apart. And you say you think you like it, so maybe your subconscious feels the reason behind it.?

One being is conscious: the narrator. To refer to a more supernatural being you could be more precise.

Oh, that’s not what I had in mind--I was thinking of neighboring humans, nocturnal animals, or even plant or other life that is sentient enough to pick up on the moonlight’s appearance. That’s why I’d used the word “conscious of” rather than “see,” although my revision has “see” now. I'm not sure if others are getting misled here, too--or how I could fix it.

Does a shift spring? The nature of a shift is more subtle than a spring, so that bit worried me.

Well, I looked up “shift,” and there’s nothing in its definition indicating that it means to take place over time; it just means a change. However, it seems that Susan’s suggested alternative for these two lines answers almost all of the various concerns that people have raised over this passage. She modifies “shift” with “sudden,” so maybe that helps to address your concern?

Staring is a very awake, active action, not something one does when still fuzzy and wrapped in sleepiness.

Oh—I didn’t mean to convey that I was still so “fuzzy and wrapped in sleepiness.” The idea is that I’d already been pulled significantly into wakefulness by the moon, and once I arose from bed, it was closer to being a matter of casting off and aside something that had already become obsolescent (i.e., the torpor of the bedding and bed). I wonder if my new rendition, “dozing shrouds,” sparked by Joe, helps to make a distinction between the sleepiness of the shrouds and the sleepiness of the n?

above, in swirling scarves of black-shot clouds,
a full-fledged moon reigned coolly. Silver-crowned,

These two lines, like those above, are VERY adjectival. I do like the compound adjs., but still that is 4 double adjectives in two lines!

Well, it's actually 3 compound adjectives, but I agree that this passage is troublingly heavy on compounds and, like S1’s, modifiers in general. I’m just not sure how to improve this.

I think you are on the verge of either a Romantic or an anti-Romantic poem about nature ("An Old Man's Winter Night," "The Wood Pile," "The Snow Man," etc.) and so I'd like the poem to push into that debate further. Mind as mirror? Mind as lamp? Nature as screen? As red in tooth and claw? Note how Frost will have his spirit in nature and his existentialism, too: through phrases such as "perhaps" or "as if" that open to the Romantic before the door gets shut again. So, basically, I love the execution and want the theme to go deeper!

This is brilliant and spot-on. Yes, that’s exactly what I’ve wanted to do but haven’t known how. Maybe I could tilt in the direction of (sketchy)

she yet was just the moon; her space no court—
just sky where chiaroscuro held its sport!

Well, Tony, thank you again for giving this poem the sort of working-over that I thought it had coming. It feels like a relief to get some of these trouble points out on the table.

[Alexandra Baez]

Joe, okay, I’ve changed “fell over” to “enveloped” and am preferring its sonics, too! So, thanks.

I’ve also adopted Susan’s revision for the S2 lines you cite. I’m not sure why “shift sprang up” was the suspected tripping point for you, but it’s gone now.

You’re right about “sleeptime,” and I’ve never liked it much, for the same reason. Thanks for the idea of personifying the shrouds—I wouldn’t have thought of that! I’ve gone with “dozing” for something a bit more unexpected, and for the sonics.

As to the clouds, yes, I’m really a lush for atmosphere, so I’m glad you enjoy it, too.

Jim, yes, I like digging in—I’m rather an all-or-nothing type.

Yes, "atmospheric" is much of what this is about—yet that atmosphere also sharpens into an idea, a metaphor.

For now, yes, I’m inclined to stand by “boldened.” I think that part of the point of poetry is to offer a vehicle to say things that make sense on a heart level even when they don’t seem to line up on a reason level. I try not to get carried away with doing this, but I think that if placed within a sturdy foundation, the occasional indulgence of this sort can make poetry pop.

I’m glad this poem is holding up for you, and I’m hoping you like some of the recent revisions even better. May this poem sharpen over time just as the spectral scene it describes!

It makes me wonder if S1 should as well. An exclamation point would work… I don’t know why. Just wondering.

Eh? That would interrupt the sentence in a nonsensical way.

I’m responding to this using my phone so I’m beginning to feel claustrophobic. If I have to come back I will : )

I would love it if you would come back and answer the several questions that I put to you in my last reply. I’d also love to hear how you feel about the metaphor I described, and how much if any of it you’d picked up on before. If you can, if you want.

David, I’m surprised at the comments I’ve gotten about “in rumples” seeming novel. “Rumple” can be a noun, so it just seemed common sense to me to say “in rumples” just as you'd say "in tatters" or suchlike. I admit I’m attached to the phrase here, especially how it works sonically with “rambled.” I could say “all rumpled,” but that sounds clunkier to me.

I’ve gotten rid of “subtly,” thanks to Susan, so now there are no worries for me about how each individual reader might take it, syllabically—even though I might get lucky in cases such as yours.

Yes, "full-blown Romantic"—up until the couplet, I guess, as Tony pointed out. You seem to have a high tolerance level for my archaic excursions—before, you astutely identified a piece of mine as rococo—or at least it sounds like you’re expressing acceptance here. By "closing question mark," I guess you mean the one at the end of S2?

Jan, I broke the octet into two stanzas because I realized that there were really three, not two, basic stages in the scene I described: the sleeping, the waking, and the rising. It felt too jammed-up with the first two together; it failed to emphasize the shift in the narrative that occurs between them. And yet I did not want a strict delineation between the first and second four lines, either—I’d had one for a long time and had found myself incredibly agitated by the sense of artificial separation and the pat, singsongy feel of these lines—until I enjambed. That seemed to set everything free and get just the feeling I’d been craving. I could care less about stock rules for poetic forms for their own sakes; in my mind, the forms were made for the poet, not the poet for the forms. I take what works, leave the rest, and then forge ahead with my own ideas. However, formal expectations aside, if you think that the poem is actually less effective for my departures, that’s another matter.