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  #11  
Unread 02-21-2022, 12:05 PM
Alexander Givental Alexander Givental is offline
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Clive, I am genuinely confused when Susan and you speak of slant/half-rhymes. In the 3 stanza's of Susan's translation, I see one rhyme: decor-before, and (perhaps to my shame) my ear missed "remain-man" - which yours doesn't appreciate. But I can't fine anything else - nether 1/2 nor 1/4. So, what are you actually talking about?
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  #12  
Unread 02-21-2022, 01:42 PM
Susan McLean Susan McLean is offline
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Alexander, a slant or half-rhyme repeats either the last vowel sound of the line or the last consonant sound, but not both. A very slant rhyme might repeat just one of two consonant sounds that occur together. I will respond to your other suggestions later.

Clive, thanks for pointing out your problem with "remains / man." I have found a different rhyme pair, still slant.

Susan
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  #13  
Unread 02-22-2022, 08:25 AM
Susan McLean Susan McLean is offline
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Alexander, "space within" is translating "hinein." It refers to the courtyard within the compound. Because English is a more economical language in terms of syllables than German is, I sometimes have to use a more roundabout way of saying things in order to maintain the same number of beats per line. I am not writing free verse. In S1L4 the verbs are about how the "semblances and silence and reflection" affect one another. So there is a transitive feeling to all of them.

Susan
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  #14  
Unread 02-22-2022, 10:29 AM
Alexander Givental Alexander Givental is offline
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Susan, I understand that you need to fill the space (and, some would argue, everything in rhymed metric poetry is merely to comply with the constraints of the form), but the "stitches" in the fabric of a poem are to be hidden from the reader. Say, if a rhyming word can be safely omitted, the critics at the metric poetry forum will immediately point out at it as a flaw. I guess, your excuse here is that great Rilke does the same: "der Hof henein". Perhaps Rilke's excuse, though, is that "der Hof" can mean a yard not necessarily enclosed by the building: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Hof Moreover, if the actual "der Hof" was not "within", he could invent this feature in order to justify the rhyming word. BTW, this illustrates the futility of translating individual words of a poem for their meaning.

Last edited by Alexander Givental; 02-22-2022 at 10:46 AM.
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  #15  
Unread 02-23-2022, 08:39 AM
Susan McLean Susan McLean is offline
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Alexander, this is the second part of a two-part poem. The first part is lower on the thread, and that one makes it clear that Rilke is describing a specific place in Bruges, a religious community of women, who are not locked in, but for whom there is a gated area in which they live and where the gate is always open. So, the area has an inside and an outside. Rilke had his reasons for emphasizing the enclosed aspect of the site, and one reason may be for the rhyme, but I try to include the details he mentions, thinking that they often have more than one reason that he chose them. My choice to be as accurate as possible is based on respect for the author. I try never to assume that I know better than the author does which details are worth mentioning.

Susan
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  #16  
Unread 02-23-2022, 09:20 AM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Just a quick note to say that I love the new version of the last three lines. In addition to enabling a more pleasing rhyme, changing the position of "man" and "woman" emphasizes that duality in a way that is very effective, even if it doesn't precisely parallel the structure of the original. Brava, Susan!
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  #17  
Unread 02-23-2022, 09:36 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Hi Susan,

I'm just coming to this and I think you've got all the German in your version rendered into English poetry. My eye wasn't really on the rhyme, but it's all there, to my mind, and the English reads very nicely indeed. This could be one of my favorites of yours.
A short note on masculine-feminine rhyme alternation, just to note that French requires it and Rilke was quite influenced by France and the French. It's not required in German, in my experience, and I'm afraid I'm not German enough to say how that pattern sounds to someone who is.

Cheers,
John
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