[Susan McLean]

Carl, I decided to take your suggestion for the lines your quoted. In the last quatrain, I know that "except/street" isn't very impressive as a slant rhyme, but it was the best I could do. I think "heed/good" is better.

Rick, I am glad to hear that "Hell's gates" works for you.

Susan

[Jim Moonan]

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If you're looking for a reader who has only a rudimentary knowledge of the classics, here I am : ).
It reads like an epic narrative in a tit-for-tat juxtaposition of two men whose lives intersect but do not mesh. Something smells very Hamlet-like in that rendering.

Your ending is quite lyrical and, like most all of your poems, has a final twist of the knife/cherry on top that makes the poem stronger.

But I find the subject boring — though not as boring as before : ). The classics leave me flat. Men and their inflated egos; men and their sense of superiority; men and their oxygen-sucking capacity. Give me Willy Loman any day. (I'm sure there's a classical equivalent to Loman. I just prefer Loman.)

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[Susan McLean]

Thanks, Jim. It is good to hear that the poem can be followed by someone who does not know the originals. I taught Death of a Salesman for years, and what you say about the classical heroes is true of Loman as well. The main difference is that he is a nobody who fails, and yet Miller gives him the same rapt attention that for centuries was given only to life's aristocrats. If you ever do read Homer, you may be surprised at how novelistic and realistic it is.

Susan

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

Hi Susan,

Back again. You triggered a memory with this that niggled and I had to go searching. The memory is unreliable but thank God books are not. I remember it as adding to the debate on the multiplicity of Homers although it predates the argument.

Horace remarks:

“Quandoque dormitat bonus Homerus”
(Even the great Homer is sometimes caught napping.)

I cannot attest to the translation as any translation in context is well above my pay pay grade.

A digression I know but I thought it may intrigue.

Jan

[David Callin]

Hi Susan,

I really like this but, fairly unforgivably, I've hacked it about a bit, preserving what seemed to me absolutely vital, rather than just good.

Of course they hate each other. One, a sword;
the other, more a river than a rock.
Achilles, when Odysseus brings word
of what the king will give him to come back,
replies, "I hate like Hell's gates one who says
one thing and hides another in his heart."
As much as calls him liar—which he is—
although he stuck to facts in his report.

Odysseus, on the shore of death's domain,
is hailed there by Achilles' prickly shade,
and tries to soothe and flatter him again,
praising his high esteem among the dead.

"Don't sweet-talk me about death," Achilles snaps.
"Better to be a poor man's half-starved farm hand
than king of the played-out dead." He turns his hopes
to hearing news about his distant homeland,
imagining men mistreating his old father,
asking about the son he never knew—
concerns Odysseus shares. How much he'd rather
be alive! He doesn't say "like you."

You'll hate it, I know. See if you can forgive me.

Cheers

David

[Susan McLean]

Jan, I am familiar with that quote. Homer has his dull spots, but I am constantly amazed at how effective he is most of the time.

David, I don't mind anyone pointing out which spots in my poem they consider weak and what rearrangements would seem more effective to them. A rewrite can be the quickest way to convey that, and I am glad to think about the possibilities. I think the detail about Odysseus lying to everyone is important, partly because it is one of the things that made my students (and Achilles) dislike him. And yet it is part of his survival technique and one of the central aspects of his character. Sometimes those details that make readers uncomfortable are the ones most worth examining. In any case, the poem is just my personal take on the characters, so I feel inclined to keep the responses that seem important to me.

Susan

[David Callin]

Originally Posted by Susan McLean

In any case, the poem is just my personal take on the characters, so I feel inclined to keep the responses that seem important to me.

And you are right to do so, Susan. Just think of my version as fanfic. (Fanpo?)

Cheers

David

[Glenn Wright]

Very impressive, Susan.
In S2L7 I’m a little confused by “played-out.” You might refer more directly to the choice that his mother, Thetis, gave Achilles either to have a short, glorious life or a long, obscure one. I’m thinking something like
“Better to be a poor man’s half-starved farm hand
than glorious king of the dead . . .”
I really like the ending.
Glenn

[Jim Moonan]

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Hi Glenn, First, welcome to Erato! Kick the snow off your boots and stay awhile...

But please be aware of a thread's "age" and position on the board and resist responding to old threads that have fallen down the chain and had no activity for some time. Of course, there will always be exceptions to the rule but I don't think your comment warrants it. Susan's poem had been picked clean over a month ago.

Here's what the Erato Guidelines say:

Bumping Old Threads

Readers’ attention floats with the threads at the top of the Forum, so please share these spots fairly. In particular, please avoid bringing old threads, whether or not they are your own, back to the top of a Forum for minor posts such as “thank you” or “good revision”. It’s fine to bump an older thread if the post contains substantive critique or reaction to critique. But once a thread has become inactive for several days, it’s best to use PM if there isn’t something quite significant still to say.

It's a good rule.

It's good to have you here. I look forward to reading some of your own work.

Cheers,
Jim

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