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Unread 04-06-2022, 10:30 AM
Duncan Gillies MacLaurin's Avatar
Duncan Gillies MacLaurin Duncan Gillies MacLaurin is offline
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Default Catullus 13 and the Petrarchan sonnet

I was reading Catullus 13 today and noted it had 14 lines. Not only that, but it is clearly divided into an octet and a sestet with a volte: "Sed..." ("But...") Might this have been the inspiration for the Petrarchan sonnet?

Duncan
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Unread 04-06-2022, 10:45 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Petrarch was a devoted classical scholar and collector of manuscripts, but a quick google confirms that there are Italian sonnets produced by the C13th court of Frederick II in Sicily. I guess there are no known earlier Occitan sonnets. Dante wrote sonnets before Petrarchís birth.

Cheers,
John

Update: this is Allenís turf, but I believe Catullus was rediscovered post-sonnet around 1300 - in time for Petrarch though. BTW I descend from Thomas Wyatt, who brought the form to English.

Last edited by John Isbell; 04-06-2022 at 10:52 AM.
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Unread 04-06-2022, 10:54 AM
Duncan Gillies MacLaurin's Avatar
Duncan Gillies MacLaurin Duncan Gillies MacLaurin is offline
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Okay, John, but my question still stands.

Duncan

PS Very nice with the Wyatt ancestry!
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Unread 04-06-2022, 10:57 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Petrarch was born in 1304. He may well, from what I know of his love of Classics, have noted the Catullus and found inspiration there. But the form predates Catullusís rediscovery, and that matters.

Cheers,
John
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Unread 04-06-2022, 10:58 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Thanks re: Wyatt! I also descend from his son, who was hanged, drawn and quartered by Bloody Mary.

Cheers,
John

Update: google again. Petrarch read and admired Catullus in the Verona Codex post-1347. Petrarch was a famous MS. collector, but he evidently lacked Catullus.

Last edited by John Isbell; 04-06-2022 at 11:23 AM.
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Unread 04-06-2022, 12:46 PM
Michael Cantor Michael Cantor is offline
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I'm getting confused, John. Was your Choctaw grandparent a descendant of Thomas Wyatt? And was he also Jewish? Or were those all separate branches of the family? I swear, there's a poem there. But I suspect you may have already written it.
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Unread 04-06-2022, 01:15 PM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Hi Michael,

John Riley has a Choctaw grandparent. I donít. Iíve called my family half-Jewish because quite literally, of eleven nieces and nephews, five are Jewish. I think that justifies the epithet. I am however also about 18% Norwegian, says the DNA, so expect a Norwegian poem in short order. I do have one short Thomas Wyatt poem, which is not terrible IMO.

Cheers,
John
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Unread 04-06-2022, 02:33 PM
Michael Cantor Michael Cantor is offline
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Sorry, John. I was thinking of this post of yours:

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Isbell View Post
We have a detailed family tree tracing our line back to Pocahontas.
I donate fairly regularly to Native American causes, and have two Zuni rings on my two hands.
I'm afraid my family tree only goes back to Ellis Island and the Lower East Side. Whenever anybody asked where we were from, my grandmother's answer was "Grand by Orchard."
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Unread 04-06-2022, 02:51 PM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Hi Michael,

Yes, Pocahontas and John Rolfe are also in my family tree, though I now wear just the one Zuni ring. She and Thomas Wyatt are undoubtedly the big names on the tree until you get back to royalty. Also, my grandpa ran the Pentagon in WW II, and my dad invented the Isbell Theorem. Sorry. My Norwegian great-grandma did arrive via Ellis Island, though, or so Iím told.
Anyhow. Yes, I am in DNA terms an American mutt, or a percent, as I was once told in Minneapolis. For my part, I usually say Iím from Seattle but we moved around a lot.

Cheers,
John

Update: well, Pocahontas was royalty. Thatís why she met Elizabeth and John Rolfe didnít.

Last edited by John Isbell; 04-06-2022 at 02:57 PM.
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Unread 04-06-2022, 04:11 PM
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Ann Drysdale Ann Drysdale is online now
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Thought better of it.

Last edited by Ann Drysdale; 04-06-2022 at 04:14 PM.
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