[Yves S L]

I am not sure how other folk use words, so:

argument: emotionally unstable verbal fight,
disagreement: calm discussion involving a difference of opinion,

Disagreements are useful for grasping different points of view, which may give one ideas, for say, revisions of a poem, or another way of analyzing literature.

For myself, the only reason to engage in arguments is for entertainment. That is to say, one stays calm but just treats it as a form of internet sport, verbal jousting, where everyone brings their best game and their best bar, and the game is to get the other person to quit or back down. Arguments almost always involve some fight over (perceived) social status, and this is where, for example, you get some long established folk lording it over others, especially newbies to the forum

For myself, whatever you may gain from arguments is never worth it, but disagreements may be useful for sparking new thoughts.

Generally, for me, one observation about the current state of Eratosphere is that after a while, folk get comfortable not really giving critique, and so it becomes passing poems between one's friends who have already settled in the appraisals they tend to make, and how far they may be comfortable in potentially upsetting one of their mates.

Thus I always welcome fresh blood not already entangled in the conventions and relationships of the board.

[Nick McRae]

Originally Posted by R. Nemo Hill

The arguments of the old days, even when they became petty or vituperative, were, for me, just as instructive as the calmer archival education. The reputation of the Sphere rested firmly upon such an unsparingly critical approach, and on the full airing of opinion which often compelled response from one. It did get messy, but the poetic results were often dazzling, and the lessons learned were invaluable to me. It changed me, thickening my skin without making it impermeable. I see nothing even remotely comparable to that raucous goldmine going on here these days, nothing to distinguish the Sphere from any other site. But perhaps lightning only strikes once.

Nemo

I believe it, although I wonder if this site is still the strongest poetry community to be found online. In terms of archival quality, skill of the poets who are still here, and the critique that's still happening. I have no doubt that standards would have been higher in the early days, but much of the critique I've received since joining has been quite strong. At least IMO.

Really, I can say something similar. What I've learned since joining in 2021 has been invaluable, and wouldn't have been possible without this community. So it's not all in tatters.

I also agree on the point about general poetic education. A lot of what I've learned since joining hasn't only come from critique, but more generally having access to a community of poets and an archive of the conversations that have been had here.

[Nick McRae]

Originally Posted by Yves S L

Generally, for me, one observation about the current state of Eratosphere is that after a while, folk get comfortable not really giving critique, and so it becomes passing poems between one's friends who have already settled in the appraisals they tend to make, and how far they may be comfortable in potentially upsetting one of their mates.

Thus I always welcome fresh blood not already entangled in the conventions and relationships of the board.

I agree with this. Counterintuitively, some of the most helpful critiques and comments I've received have come from newcomers. Either because they've given me a raw, unfiltered view of how my poem looks to them, or because they aren't tangled up in any preexisting norms.

[Michael Juster]

Undoubtedly, as Eratosphere's first moderator, I have a somewhat sentimental view of the history here. In the first few years I remember it as a small, closely knit group; our reputation rose due to the courtesy and content of the critiques. As we mushroomed, those qualities continued with the addition of moderators Tim Murphy, Alan Sullivan, Alicia Stallings & many talented others.

In my view, which many do not share, the addition of General Talk, without a restriction of the talk to poetry, made Eratosphere a platform for politics. Soon the civility was gone, Alex rarely enforced the ad hominem rule, and many of the key people left.

I myself was driven off for many years by bullying driven by anger & extreme politics.

[Jim Moonan]

Originally Posted by Michael Juster

I remember it as a small, closely knit group; our reputation rose due to the courtesy and content of the critiques. As we mushroomed, those qualities continued with the addition of moderators Tim Murphy, Alan Sullivan, Alicia Stallings & many talented others... without a restriction of the talk to poetry, made Eratosphere a platform for politics. Soon the civility was gone... I myself was driven off for many years by bullying driven by anger & extreme politics.

Those early days sound to me to be attractively heady, sans the anger and bullying. The web in 2000 was a wild new place for poetry to manifest itself and the stars aligned to become the Eratosphere. I, likely, would have been given short-shrift in the early days of verbal melee. But maybe not... I think the Sphere has, for now, reached a tenuous balance. It continues to ebb and flow, attracting new members but retaining only those who have a thirst for robust, thoughtful, civil discussion about all things poetry. There are so many less than satisfying poetry forums, imo.

Every now and then someone refers to that period of the Sphere’s existence with the same mixed feelings as you do. Every so often, too, someone laments its passing. For some who were driven away by the vitriol it sometimes spewed, it’s hard to recover. The best one can do, I think, is to turn the wound into a scar. And avoid it like the plague it is going forward.

I am a poet with only modest skills. There are many poets here more talented than I. But I am a poet who easily soars when engaged in conversations about the art of poetry. I have so much to learn and the Sphere has been a living library for me. It is a bastion for poetic thought that I visit like I do a favorite shop with an ever-changing inventory but consistently high-quality items.

I was involved in the early days of the TEDTalks discussion forum which ultimately tore itself apart and shut down in 2018 due to the vicious negativity. I made a few friends there that I’m still in touch with. I was wounded there more than once. I might have wounded someone. Those wounds are now scars.

Michael, on a lighter note, I received your children’s book Girlatte recently. It's a wonderful children's story that will be nested in the Easter basket of my grandchild.

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