[Joe Crocker]

Hi Matt,

So the problem for you is that I don’t show how the male gaze of the narrator is shared by builders of the cut. That is fair comment, I guess. A problem here is that I’m trying to analyse my own poem by adding a post-hoc rationalisation. When I wrote it, I just put in what felt right. I had two impulses. The first verse is an image of the rounded shapely Chiltern hills and the second is about the man-made road cut through them. What links the two things is a male swagger, a kind of lust. I don’t want to get all psycho-analytic because I wouldn’t know wtf I was talking about. But there does seem to be some sort of underlying drive that links these things. Likely, I have failed to show it.

Cheers

Joe

[David Callin]

Hi Joe,

I completely get, and sympathise with, what you're trying to do here. (Admittedly I have the advantage over earlier readers of reading the subsequent comments and clarifications.)

Where it currently goes astray, I think, is in the last one and a half lines of V1. The "arse", especially, has elements of affection to it which you probably don't want here. Or so I think, at least.

Perhaps, if you treated this as a poem still not finished, and revisited those lines afresh, you might come up with something closer to your vision.

Good luck!

Cheers

David

[Susan McLean]

Joe, there is a difference between lust, which almost everyone feels, and rape. If you made clearer that the lust in the first part is more loving, you could play up the more violent actions of the engineers.

Susan

[Clive Watkins]

I agree with other posters, Joe, that the image-concepts in the first stanza immediately put the poem in a tricky place. If this were mine, I’d be reworking them.

Three other observations…

Would the forensic point of the second stanza be sharper if it began “But who would take a knife to make this cut…”?

And I wonder – in this context – what distinction separates “arrogance” and “pride”. More generally, I think the whole sequence of “self-belief”, “trust”, “courage”, “arrogance” and “pride” might benefit from closer interrogation.

The rhymes in your first stanza are all approximate, notably the emphatically placed pair “heart/arse” – which perhaps adds a casual or gratuitous quality to the offending image. In the second stanza there is more symmetry, the first and third lines being in assonance, the formally prominent second and fourth having perfect rhymes. I wonder if these matters might benefit from some adjustment.

Good luck with this!

Clive

[Matt Q]

Originally Posted by Joe Crocker

So the problem for you is that I don’t show how the male gaze of the narrator is shared by builders of the cut. That is fair comment, I guess. [...] I had two impulses. The first verse is an image of the rounded shapely Chiltern hills and the second is about the man-made road cut through them. What links the two things is a male swagger, a kind of lust. I don’t want to get all psycho-analytic because I wouldn’t know wtf I was talking about. But there does seem to be some sort of underlying drive that links these things. Likely, I have failed to show it.

Well, it's not really a problem for me, as such. I flagged it up, because you said your aim was to show the male gaze of the engineers, and I don't think the poem does this.

I'd also suggest that the question, S2L1-2 maybe works against your goal of suggesting the N and engineers are similar, that they share the male gaze. Or it did for me. After all the N finds the engineers surprising, even difficult to comprehend. The poem stresses his difference from them.

S2L1-2 also raises the question of the engineers' motivations. Why did they do it? And I'd say one possible answer that suggests itself is that maybe the engineers just don't see themselves cutting through a woman's form. Maybe to them, the hills are just an obstacle. Maybe they just have a job to be done and a deadline to be met.

So, while the poem raises the question of the engineers' motivations, for me, it doesn't give us any real reason to think they share the N's view of things. Especially, I think, if the reader doesn't share the N's view either.

And all that's OK, I guess. The poem can be about the N and his view of the world, including his view of others' motivations and actions. Just, as above, this doesn't seem to be what you were aiming for.

best,

Matt

[Joe Crocker]

Thanks David, Susan, Clive and Matt for your criticisms and your encouragement. There’s a lot to think about here

The "arse", especially, has elements of affection to it which you probably don't want here. Or so I think, at least.

David. So “Arse” is problematic. On first read it seemed you thought it was too affectionate? On second thoughts, probably not. I think Susan also thought the image was a misstep in that it was inappropriately affectionate (ie offensive). I think I want elements of both of affection and lust. And for the first stanza to end teetering onto transgression. When I began the poem “arse” was a key word I wanted to be prominent. I feel that several commentators are gently steering me away from it, perhaps fearing I may make a fool of myself or attract vitriol. So it may pay to let it sleep for a while and see if I flush with shame when I look at it later.

Joe, there is a difference between lust, which almost everyone feels, and rape. If you made clearer that the lust in the first part is more loving, you could play up the more violent actions of the engineers.

Susan. I agree. I had hoped the that S1L2 with “the way it holds its heart” gave that sense of loving. The transition to lust may be too abrupt.

Clive. (Re tricky words see above)

I do like half-rhymes. I like the way they hold lines together unostentatiously. They make the plot less predictable but are still satisfying. The final couplet is a perfect rhyme now, but wasn’t in version 1. And coming at the end, the drum roll and cymbal clash seem more acceptable. I had no particular plan with the organisation of half-rhymes but “arse” is a tricky one to find a perfect partner for. I will think what difference perfect rhymes might make. And given “arse” draws the attention, it might be better if it were less on display.

I get what you say about beginning the S2 with “But”. That was how I had it in an earlier version. I left it out because I recognized it as a tic in my own speech habits that I overuse (ie statement followed by counter or qualification) and am getting bored with. I start too many sentences with “But”. But (there I go again) it may help the meaning here. (And it helps the IP)

And I wonder – in this context – what distinction separates “arrogance” and “pride”. More generally, I think the whole sequence of “self-belief”, “trust”, “courage”, “arrogance” and “pride” might benefit from closer interrogation.

“Pride” to me is more than a synonym of “arrogance”. It clearly goes before a fall, but it has good connotations too. You can be proud of your kids, your football team, the poem you got published, the bypass you helped build.. It doesn’t always mean vainglorious. So I saw courage=good, arrogance=bad and pride as good & bad, which I hoped would convey my ambivalence, the discomfort combined with admiration I feel for this feature. “Self-belief” was about how sure the planners and engineers were that they could pull this thing off. “Trust” is the more complicated word of your selection. I originally had it as “lust” which linked the stanza more clearly with the first. But it seemed to unnecessarily repeat that theme and was one-dimensional compared to “trust”. I felt ”trust” could refer to the engineers trust in their skill, society’s trust in the commissioning of the project, and even the landscape’s trust that it would survive the surgery. Using “trust” with its several different possibilities also seemed more appropriate to turning into a question.

I hope all that doesn’t sound too defensive. There may always be better words, than the ones we choose.

Matt. Sorry if I implied that you had a problem. I was only trying to paraphrase what I thought you thought the problem was with what I’d written.

The difficulty is the poem has 2 distinct images, one of beauty/love/lust and one of a kind of violence/achievement/hubris. And I’m suggesting that there may be something masculine linking them. (I know there must be female engineers and architects doing similarly audacious work, so masculine may be the wrong word). But, you’re right, in that I don’t do much more than suggest it.

I also doubt that the planners, engineers had much sense of the feminine shape they were taking liberties with. And yet there seems to me to be some single-minded, narrow focus that is shared between the situations. I’m likely to tangle myself up here, but the way in which the male gaze can objectify features of women and can be excited by them independently of personhood, might also connect with the ability of civil engineers to focus on particular problems, to compartmentalise and not worry too much about the bigger picture. A difficulty here, is that the Chiltern hillside is not a woman, it is an object and therefore can’t really suffer from objectification. Hmmm. I am out of my depth now and almost certainly talking BS. But thanks for forcing me to think more deeply about it.

Thanks again all

Joe

[Joe Crocker]

I hesitate to bump this up again, especially as the previous criticisms are probably not addressed in this revision. I have written an extra stanza which, I hope, conveys the sentiment better. On the other hand, it may just be a “telly” justification of a bad, or badly expressed, idea.

[David Callin]

Well, I think the additional stanza helps. It knits the two together better. But I may not be in tune with the prevailing Zeitgeist either.

Cheers

David

[Matt Q]

Hi Joe,

I think the revision definitely improves this. You've lost the division between N (and his view of the hills), and the engineers (and theirs), which for me was part of what was getting in the way of what you were aiming for. I think it's much clearer what's going on.

I think the opening of S2 is much more grabbing/engaging and in media res than the (to my mind) more pedestrian start of S1. And would make for a better opening line for the poem.

I also think there's a certain of duplication/repetition in S1 & S2. "Absurdly carnal" kind of covers "You’d press your hand against her spine. Or let it slap upon her arse." for example. (I'm also not sure if the repetition of "shape" in S2 is working for me.)

So I find myself wondering if there's a way to combine the first two stanzas, and drop back down to a two-stanza poem. At a quick stab, maybe something along the lines of:

Absurdly carnal, how a simple line
insinuates and curls around her shape.
How swell and cleave disturb your mind
to fantasy, the urge to mould or make.

Though possibly you need to say that "she" is the hills. But still, I reckon trying to merge S1 & 2 might be worth playing with.

best,

Matt

[Joe Crocker]

Thanks David. Glad you think the new stanza helps.

I know I’m on a hiding to nothing with this ignoble image. In my head I’m trying to be honest about the male gaze (and maybe it's just this male), knowing how it upsets many women (and many men). I'm not trying to justify it, and hope it is not seen as a celebration of the boorish and leering.

Matt. Thanks for coming back and for the encouragement and the advice.

I agree that the first line is dull. I needed to set a particular scene, I thought, and given that the succeeding lines were intended to startle, it seemed a low hurdle. I do like your idea of in media res ( I had to look that up) ie starting with the guts of it. Your suggestion also opens a way to skirt round the more pornographic images. Thanks again for trying to save me from myself. I will think hard about it.

I quite liked the 2 "shapes" (which are followed by 2 "urges") but helpful to know it doesn’t work well for you.

Thanks again both of you.

Joe