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Unread 05-14-2022, 09:16 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Hi Yves,

Thank you! I think you make a series of fundamental points here. First, that pattern is not a human invention, but omnipresent in Nature, in a variety of ways - tension and release, repetition and novelty, and of course numerical or geometric pattern. Second, that certain forms are resonant, almost independently of social context - one might almost call them natural forms, like the three-minute pop song. Third, that culture raises a whole new set of interesting questions, separate perhaps from form: which is, I think, to what extent can we move from one cultural matrix to another one? You make this point - "even then, one's perspective will never be similar to the natives of that culture, but merely more useful than folk who do not make similar efforts" - with which I can only sympathize, having spent a couple of decades growing up abroad (mostly in the UK) and then 45 years studying and publishing in French, despite to this day being obviously foreign to Frenchmen with a keen ear.

I guess I'd say a couple of things. Other people are, I think, ultimately unknowable; but culture is patent, it exists in public and private interaction with others, and as such, can be known. I think it's a continuum, as you also suggest, Yves - when I left the UK in 1993 I was functionally English, just as I was functionally American on leaving the US in 1973. That being said, most people won't put in those years of labor. But even putting on a kimono is more than many Westerners would do or think of doing: a new culture is a continuum, and immersion begins at the shallow end. I'd add that A) I'm sidestepping the appropriation question and B) in learning a foreign language, there's a moment it *clicks*, it begins to make sense, and cultures may offer something analogous. I understand the French better when I see why they may think of Dunkirk as a betrayal. Or Mers al-Kebir, for that matter!

Yves, you also make a point about the social context for form, suggesting I think that much if not all of that discussion has little bearing on the form itself. That I think is a fruitful topic for discussion.

Cheers,
John

Update: we cross-posted but I believe your additional argument continues these broad lines.... but I'm going to stop resuming people's arguments, I think that misses the point of polyphony.

Last edited by John Isbell; 05-14-2022 at 09:21 AM. Reason: cross-posting
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