Eratosphere

Eratosphere (https://www.ablemuse.com/erato/index.php)
-   Musing on Mastery (https://www.ablemuse.com/erato/forumdisplay.php?f=15)
-   -   Catullus 13 and the Petrarchan sonnet (https://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthread.php?t=34035)

Duncan Gillies MacLaurin 04-06-2022 10:30 AM

Catullus 13 and the Petrarchan sonnet
 
I was reading Catullus 13 today and noted it had 14 lines. Not only that, but it is clearly divided into an octet and a sestet with a volte: "Sed..." ("But...") Might this have been the inspiration for the Petrarchan sonnet?

Duncan

John Isbell 04-06-2022 10:45 AM

Petrarch was a devoted classical scholar and collector of manuscripts, but a quick google confirms that there are Italian sonnets produced by the C13th court of Frederick II in Sicily. I guess there are no known earlier Occitan sonnets. Dante wrote sonnets before Petrarch’s birth.

Cheers,
John

Update: this is Allen’s turf, but I believe Catullus was rediscovered post-sonnet around 1300 - in time for Petrarch though. BTW I descend from Thomas Wyatt, who brought the form to English.

Duncan Gillies MacLaurin 04-06-2022 10:54 AM

Okay, John, but my question still stands.

Duncan

PS Very nice with the Wyatt ancestry!

John Isbell 04-06-2022 10:57 AM

Petrarch was born in 1304. He may well, from what I know of his love of Classics, have noted the Catullus and found inspiration there. But the form predates Catullus’s rediscovery, and that matters.

Cheers,
John

John Isbell 04-06-2022 10:58 AM

Thanks re: Wyatt! I also descend from his son, who was hanged, drawn and quartered by Bloody Mary.

Cheers,
John

Update: google again. Petrarch read and admired Catullus in the Verona Codex post-1347. Petrarch was a famous MS. collector, but he evidently lacked Catullus.

Michael Cantor 04-06-2022 12:46 PM

I'm getting confused, John. Was your Choctaw grandparent a descendant of Thomas Wyatt? And was he also Jewish? Or were those all separate branches of the family? I swear, there's a poem there. But I suspect you may have already written it.

John Isbell 04-06-2022 01:15 PM

Hi Michael,

John Riley has a Choctaw grandparent. I don’t. I’ve called my family half-Jewish because quite literally, of eleven nieces and nephews, five are Jewish. I think that justifies the epithet. I am however also about 18% Norwegian, says the DNA, so expect a Norwegian poem in short order. I do have one short Thomas Wyatt poem, which is not terrible IMO.

Cheers,
John

Michael Cantor 04-06-2022 02:33 PM

Sorry, John. I was thinking of this post of yours:

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Isbell (Post 407276)
We have a detailed family tree tracing our line back to Pocahontas.
I donate fairly regularly to Native American causes, and have two Zuni rings on my two hands.

I'm afraid my family tree only goes back to Ellis Island and the Lower East Side. Whenever anybody asked where we were from, my grandmother's answer was "Grand by Orchard."

John Isbell 04-06-2022 02:51 PM

Hi Michael,

Yes, Pocahontas and John Rolfe are also in my family tree, though I now wear just the one Zuni ring. She and Thomas Wyatt are undoubtedly the big names on the tree until you get back to royalty. Also, my grandpa ran the Pentagon in WW II, and my dad invented the Isbell Theorem. Sorry. My Norwegian great-grandma did arrive via Ellis Island, though, or so I’m told.
Anyhow. Yes, I am in DNA terms an American mutt, or a percent, as I was once told in Minneapolis. For my part, I usually say I’m from Seattle but we moved around a lot.

Cheers,
John

Update: well, Pocahontas was royalty. That’s why she met Elizabeth and John Rolfe didn’t.

Ann Drysdale 04-06-2022 04:11 PM

Thought better of it.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:35 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.