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This Is Why Bob Dylan Won The Nobel Prize
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Terrific, John! That song. I had these lines taped to the wall next to my bed for about ten years: "There are those among us / who think life is but a joke / you and I have been through that / this is not our fate / so let us not speak falsely now / the hour is getting late"
Cally |
I agree, but I think he already deserved it for The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carrol, just to name one off the top of my head. (And he didn't even have to rhyme very much).
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Heck, I'd have given him the prize just for writing "But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."
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Wow. Haven't listened to that for years. Gave me chills.
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I'd give it to him for writing the perfect lyric poem "Knockin' on Heaven's Door".
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And Cally, he was still knockin' years later when he wrote Tryin' To Get To Heaven Before They Close the Door, which I also consider Nobelworthy.
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I never for an instant doubted that giving Dylan the Nobel Prize was a fitting thing to do. I have the book of his lyrics and it does not take too long for one to realize that he is an impressive poet. I think "It Ain't Me Babe" is one of the great anti-love songs. But I have often found that his voice and a comparative lack of musicianship detract from his lyrics. To me, of Dylan, Springsteen, Neil Young, Tom Waits and some others Joni Mitchell is the more complete artist. There, I've opened the gates.
Bill |
Bill,
Would you, kindly, post a link to your favorite of each one of these five you've mentioned? Thanks, ~mignon |
Mignon,
Dylan: Tambourine Man Springteen: Atlantic City Neil: Old Laughing Lady Tom Waits: Cold Cold Ground Joni: Coyote Cohen: Stranger Song Prine: Sam Stone |
Jesse --- every time I come into my writing shed, alone, I pick up my guitar and sing 'Tambourine Man' to myself, to the wind. Magic lyrics.
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Don't forget Joan's devastating Diamonds and Rust.
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My favorite John Prine is "Lake Marie," which I come back to again and again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzCjQwt2rgI
Cheers, John As for Dylan, maybe "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall"? Maybe "Blind Willie McTell"? Maybe "Mississippi"? Maybe "Boots of Spanish Leather"? Or maybe 58 other songs. As for "Mr. Tambourine Man," I have a theory it's sung by someone who has recently died. Check it out. Cheers, John |
Hmmm. I seem to be in a minority of one here. I'll get my coat and hat.
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Bill: "To me, of Dylan, Springsteen, Neil Young, Tom Waits and some others Joni Mitchell is the more complete artist. There, I've opened the gates."
Now that the gates are opened... You left out Leonard the Dark Horse. Also John Lennon. Especially his solo work: primal, painful, biting, love-struck, courageous, intelligent lyrics that stand up well as poems. I really wish some literary organization would recognize his writing with a posthumous recognition/award/prize. And "yes" to Joni and Joan. . |
I love all those people too. John Coltrane is one of the greatest geniuses America has produced. But there is a reason Dylan is Dylan and deserves whatever recognition he gets. All the people mentioned followed in his wake. He made it possible. He is a revolutionary artist.
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Well, let me be more controversial.
In my opinion, Dylan's songs are tremendously beautiful. I spent an entirel Summyer once listening to his best of: and memories of that summer are still a blend of sun and grass and Dylan. All Along the Watchtower is one of my favourite songs. But, of lyricism, I believe Aesop Rock deserved more fully the prize. |
Bill, do you know the story of the recording of "I Takes A Lot to Laugh, It Takes A Train to Cry?" It's an example of why his musicianship is as good as anyone in the tradition he is in. He does things that others didn't think of doing and doesn't care if it's what's expected.
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John: “ But there is a reason Dylan is Dylan and deserves whatever recognition he gets. All the people mentioned followed in his wake. He made it possible. He is a revolutionary artist.” That’s debatable. Many of the other artist mentioned were rising at the same time as Dylan. They influenced each other. Dylan himself might agree. For pure artistic genius, I lean, ever so slightly, towards Lennon. Though similar to Bill’s summer recollection of Dylan, I had a “Blonde On Blonde” summer that was and is indelible. . |
Someone mentioned Boots of Spanish leather. Since Nanci Griffith died recently, I'll post her great cover of the song. BOOTS
Also great: Simple Twist of Fate, Not Dark Yet, Don't Think Twice, Forever Young, Like a Rolling Stone, Shelter from the Storm, Everything Is Broken, Standing in the Doorway, and a little song called Blowin' in the Wind. The video of Not Dark Yet is wonderful. |
Cally-o,
Magic lyrics is rite! I always play girl from the north country as a warm up! The guy just was on top to the pyramid for a solid seven years... it's almost more than poetry or music and edges into prophecy and vatic utterance. I bought chronicles just to read his account of those first seven, but he refused to write about it and only wrote once sentence concerning it. Paraphrased here: One has to command angels to write those kind of songs... Okay Ezekiel, I mean, Bob. As for the discussion of musicianship and songwriting my feeling is that all those named here, the monsters of folk from that period, are all master songsmiths. That doesn't mean they are great, or even good musicians. Technical ability and creative ability overlap but remain two very distinct things. For my money, Waits's pen is better than all the rest. Joni's guitaring is unmatched. Cohen's control, and voice. To me John Lennon doesn't belong anywhere near this conversation. He is a great songwriter, but clearly his lyrics can't hang with the others mentioned here. Also, we are only talking about one generation loosely. So many stellar artists have come since them. Yoni Wolf David Berman Conor Oberst Joe Pug Ani Difranco And for both songcraft and musicianship Kelly Joe Phelps is the best out - plus he has no social media, no promotion, no nothing. It's truly my belief that he is hundreds of years old, and simply hangs around here by choice. J |
John;
Music is like well formed hands that in their palms sometimes words are offered up. In my listening the union of the hands and the words happens less frequently than others claim. I seriously doubt if the Nobel Prize will ever be given again to a pop musician (although I certainly could be wrong). But I think Dylan got it because his lyrics have for decades embodied the 'conscious of America'. The Nobel Prize is not a music award. It does not have one. For me nothing comes together like the fusion of music and words than in the albums 'Blue", "The Hissing of Summer Lawns", and "Mingus". Many artists have something to say or a great story to tell and many should do just that; write a poem or write a story. Yes, Dylan is a true revolutionary. Mitchell is just an innovator. Bill |
Oh, a Dylan thread! Yaay! I've banged on about him many times here in the past but basically I couldn't agree more with John. I don't think his influence can be overestimated. But also, Julie!
Quote:
https://youtu.be/jFfiDALshd0 |
Bob Dylan is not a pop singer.
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John:
I disagree. Popular Music is the umbrella which includes folk, rock, blues, Broadway, and everything else except jazz and classical. Bill |
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Jesse: "To me John Lennon doesn't belong anywhere near this conversation. He is a great songwriter, but clearly his lyrics can't hang with the others mentioned here." I’ve followed Dylan’s work all my adult life and have seen him twice on stage. (The live concerts were garbled and poorly produced , imo.) He has been, without question, the quintessential bard of our time. From the standpoint of folk music, he catalyzed the genre and sent it hurtling into rock. Unquestionably a great artist and a fine poet. But for pure artistic genius and for the sheer honesty of his solo work I still want Lennon on the stage with Dylan, reflecting the angst of our times, speaking relentlessly about love, writing unvarnished personal lyrics of pain and redemption and religion and family and power and war. Just Gimme some truth, The kind Mr. Tambourine Man played in the jingle jangle morning, and I’ll follow. John: "Bob Dylan is not a pop singer." No he's not. Nor is Lennon's solo work (see my response to Jesse). I like my music lyrics like I like my poetry: first and foremost personal, with clear, broader implications. Both Dylan and Lennon are masters at that. . . |
Fair enough, Jim:) I just find Lennon not up to par in a consistent way with the others lyrically. But to each their own, the guy is still a giant, no question.
Popular songs and pop idiom are also not the same thing. I think a lot of people miss that distinction. Pop is like this catchy, melodic, hook based style that can be done in any kind genre of music - the stars, U2, the smiths... all pop, lots of underground pop, too. Have we mentioned Nick Drake yet? J |
Ah, Nick Drake, Jesse. So incredible but almost too heartbreaking to think about.
Hey, Bob himself claimed to be "not even a pop singer" in 1965 (5 mins 45), though as always he's being a cheeky little trickster. And he can hold his breath three times as long as Caruso (if he wants to). https://youtu.be/mnl5X5MQKTg |
I don't dare listen to Nick Drake, I really don't. It's like an invitation to dissolve.
Taxonomies are interesting, and fluid. Perhaps the interesting things work in the intersections anyway? Either way, it's a Tom Waits night tonight, and Nick Drake can flood me another day. Sarah-Jane |
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One of the few blogs I read religiously is Maria Popova's Brain Pickings. A recent edition was devoted to Bob Dylan. It seems (like all her blogs) well-researched and true to Dylan the artist, the songwriter, the poet. Worth reading, I think. Here it is. . |
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. https://youtu.be/rGEIMCWob3U Crimson flames tied through my ears, rollin' high and mighty traps Pounced with fire on flaming roads using ideas as my maps "We'll meet on edges, soon," said I, proud 'neath heated brow Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth, "rip down all hate," I screamed Lies that life is black and white spoke from my skull, I dreamed Romantic facts of musketeers foundationed deep, somehow Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now Girls' faces formed the forward path from phony jealousy To memorizing politics of ancient history Flung down by corpse evangelists, unthought of, though somehow Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now A self-ordained professor's tongue too serious to fool Spouted out that liberty is just equality in school "Equality," I spoke the word as if a wedding vow Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand at the mongrel dogs who teach Fearing not that I'd become my enemy in the instant that I preach My existence led by confusion boats, mutiny from stern to bow Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats too noble to neglect Deceived me into thinking I had something to protect Good and bad, I define these terms quite clear, no doubt, somehow Ah, but I was so much older then I'm younger than that now . . |
Visions of Johanna, anyone?
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Interesting that this question keeps coming up. A few years ago at the West Chester University Poetry Conference— shortly BEFORE Dylan won the Nobel Prize— I chaired a panel on poetry and music. The focus of the panel was on what happens to a poem when it’s set to music. One of the things that happens, of course, is that it has the potential to reach a wider audience.
During the Q&A, someone asked whether Dylan’s lyrics could be considered poems. My off-the-cuff answer was yes, they are poems, but that if he hadn’t set them to music, probably few if any of us would have heard of Dylan. I’ve always thought of setting poems to music as an alternate method of publication/distribution. Dylan not only mastered that, but—through his quirky way of singing his own songs—gave other artists an incentive to sing and publish covers. Because after all, who in the world could NOT sing them better, or at least more pleasingly, than he could—-or would? I can’t help suspecting that his annoying voice or intonation has always been a deliberate challenge in that direction. In any case, it has worked, hasn’t it? Claudia PS: I think it’s worth adding that one of the reasons his songs are such an effective means of distribution is that they are TONAL, and have memorable melodies. All the contemporary fads in the world can’t substitute for that. |
Claudia, in 1961 Woody Guthrie said about Dylan, "That boy’s got a voice. Maybe he won’t make it with his writing but he can sing it, he can really sing it.”
And here's Dylan in a speech he once gave: Quote:
The other day I came across a song of Dylan's that I didn't remember ever hearing before. It's not his best song, but it's a very good song, and I offer it up as a random example of what I consider to be very solid, musical, expressive singing. Here it is. |
Thanks for the link, Roger. I'd never heard that song either. Dylan's voice is another instrument and sometimes it is dissonant, which is a tool he uses the same way other composers do. Yes, there are other versions of his songs by different artists that are brilliant. The song at the top of the thread is an example. But his skill at using his voice to emphasize what is happening in the song instead of diverting our attention from the song is genius.
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John and Roger, good points about the effectiveness of Dylan’s voice. I only meant that if others wanted to sing his songs with a more “pleasing” voice, he certainly left room for that, which may have added an incentive for covers.
Roger, Thanks for the link you posted. It seemed to be recent, and I wondered how old the song was. A search turned up a performance in 1986. I do think he sounds better in the recent one. Claudia |
It seems to be recent, on the one hand, but Dylan looks quite a bit younger than he does now so I can't figure out when it was recorded.
To belabor my point about his singing, take this song. The refrain of "you left me standing in the doorway crying" is sung several times to the same tune, yet as the song develops Dylan's intonation and phrasing continually evolve to fit different underlying emotions. At first he says it with resignation, almost wistful, perhaps with self pity, but later on it turns into indignation or anger or astonishment and other shades of emotion that are hard to specify. It's a person saying important stuff with appropriate emotion as well as a singer staying within the confines of the melody. |
Further case for the defence of Dylan being a "good" singer. How beautiful is this?
https://youtu.be/uSdVOEKW5YA And as far as Dylan the poet, I offer these snippets: (from "Tombstone Blues") Well, John the Baptist after torturing a thief Looks up at his hero the Commander-in-Chief Saying, "Tell me great hero, but please make it brief Is there a hole for me to get sick in?" The Commander-in-Chief answers him while chasing a fly Saying, "Death to all those who would whimper and cry." And dropping a bar bell he points to the sky Saying, "The sun's not yellow it's chicken." The geometry of innocent flesh on the bone Causes Galileo's math book to get thrown At Delilah who's sitting worthlessly alone But the tears on her cheeks are from laughter. I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill I would set him in chains at the top of the hill Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille He could die happily ever after. Where Ma Rainey and Beethoven once unwrapped a bed roll Tuba players now rehearse around the flagpole And the National Bank at a profit sells road maps for the soul To the old folks' home and the college. I wish I could write you a melody so plain That could hold you, dear lady, from going insane That could ease you and cool you and cease the pain Of this useless and pointless knowledge. (from "Every Grain of Sand") In the time of my confession, in the hour of my deepest need When the pool of tears beneath my feet flood every newborn seed There's a dying voice within me it's reaching out somewhere Toiling in the danger and in the morals of despair Don't have the inclination to look back on any mistake Like Cain, I behold this chain of events that I must break In the fury of the moment, I can see the master's hand In every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand Oh, the flowers of indulgence and the weeds of yesteryear Like criminals, they have choked the breath of conscience and good cheer And the sun beat down upon the steps of time to light the way To ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay I gaze into the doorway of temptation's angry flame And every time I pass that way I always hear my name Then onward in my journey, I come to understand That every hair is numbered like every grain of sand I have slipped from rags to riches in the sorrow of the night In the violence of a summer's dream, in the chill of a wintery light In the bitter dance of loneliness fading into space In the broken mirror of innocence on each forgotten face I hear the ancient footsteps like the motion of the sea Sometimes I turn, there's someone there, other times it's only me I'm hanging in the balance of a perfect finished plan Like every sparrow falling, like every grain of sand (From "Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands") The kings of Tyrus, with their convict list Are waiting in line for their geranium kiss And you wouldn't know it would have happened like this But who among them really wants just to kiss you? With your childhood flames on your midnight rug And your Spanish manners and your mother's drugs And your cowboy mouth and your curfew plugs Who among them do you think could resist you? Sad-eyed lady of the lowlands Where the sad-eyed prophet says that no man comes My warehouse eyes, my Arabian drums Should I leave them by your gate, or sad-eyed lady, should I wait? |
I mean, I could go on and on. And of course they're meant to be heard with music. That's part of the package and part of the poetry. I, for one, wouldn't be writing poems if it weren't for Bob Dylan.
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